http://www.toontalkspodcast.com/?p=584#more-584
Transcript:
Sandra Ni Chonaola 0:17
Everybody's Welcome to Talks podcast.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 0:20
I'm your host, Sandra. And today's guest is James Chang. I first heard of James when I studied animation mentor he was famous for his enthusiastic and detailed critiques and everybody wanted him as a mentor. I wasn't so lucky back then, but a few years ago I did manage to take few personal classes with them, and we get to know each other really well. I'm Sam delighted to be able to call this guy a friend, our conversations are always compelling to me. I always feel invigorated and full of inspiration after them. And I wanted to share that same feeling with you guys. So here it is my conversation about animation with James Chang.
James Chiang 0:54
Yeah, sure absolutely sounds good. All right.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 0:57
Well, let's start out with. What made you fall in love with animation and how you got started in industry.
James Chiang 1:03
Oh I fell in love animation I went to art
school first until College of Art when I switched careers from business I spent my life, most of my life was spent in science and business, and to make that john realizing that I was meant to be an artist, it was kind of scary and realized, oh god I got to be an artist. So I transferred myself to art school and what happens during art school I realized the direction was towards less and less drawing and more towards conception and it led me to do animation where I wanted to still draw and try to bring life to things and so I chose to enroll at Sheridan College up in Toronto, Ontario. Game school ratio in college, and it was, it was great experience. I learned a lot and then kind of pulled me into it because of just seeing the work that was being done at the time. I believe 2d animation had this huge revival from Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast and I think it was hitting a peak of Lion King we didn't know it was a peak at the time, got people like myself and my friends all interested in it was the rest is kind of history went into that and you know ultimately moved into 3d but that seeing the work that people like Glen Keane just interviewed and, and other great artists, it was so inspiring to see the process of the work done not so much as the end result, the end result everyone loves you know when you see the rough drawings, the thinking, the thumbnailing and all the research involved. I was just thinking wow what a What a way to ask the day. To do this, right, and so, yeah.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 2:41
And if you could pick one thing that you know now that you wish you knew at the start of your career, what would it be.
Unknown Speaker 2:46
Oh my gosh.
James Chiang 2:49
What I wish I knew,
I wish I could foresee a little bit more of the direction of the industry better. And that's a hard thing in anything in business as well it's very hard to foresee what technology brings at the time. I remember when I went into 2d I always thought that 2d wouldn't die. A lot of people were trying to assure me that it wouldn't, including many mentors and teachers and turns out all of us were kind of wrong not dead but it's no longer mainstream there isn't a large venue where artists that work two dimensionally can can express their creativity that way. But that said,
I still think there's not too much you can really know ahead of time so
I don't know I think it's more knowing your sense of destination, having some sort of direction your life I think at the time, making the change to be an artist was already a big directional change to hone down into 2d or 3d which was very much in its infancy at the time,
but about a little map and I wish I could change one
thing, I wish I was more open to to technology at the time, and to what may come and realizing you know the world is going to keep evolving. And I think part of the beauty of being the heart of the human species and the beauty of it is their ability our ability to to adapt and at the time. If you don't think that far ahead, you're gonna just react to what's going on. And then your emotions kind of play into that and then you're, you're all erratic and then you kind of lose direction again and I think that happened to myself and to a lot of artists at the time, especially with suddenly you know the big studios while starting to move on from 3d to 2d animation and who thrust themselves into 3d which was very new there were no 3d schools at the time outside of maybe Ringling, a few others maybe but pretty much in its infancy and I think
knowing
thinking of being open minded about what may come
can keep you a little bit more prepared
because artists, no businessman have one thing. Ahead of artists artists tend to kind of just react you know we
go what we love. And as
Unknown Speaker 5:01
a business person you're,
James Chiang 5:02
they they plan better they know what they want,
even if it's a shallow goal like money or something. But it's, it's very, very clear in their head, and as artists I think that we had a little clearer sense of what we really want whether it's a certain destination or kind of job you want to do, whether it be layout animation rigging or whatever, you kind of have to know a little bit ahead and you kind of know you're kind of going into, you can kind of take the proper steps that are easier to take than just thinking about it because our minds get confused so easily. At least I was when I was in my 20s I was
very confused.
So that's kind of. That's a long way to answer your question.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 5:43
Better than short ones so it's all good.
Well you ranked beautifully on your blog about filament animation and how to analyze film and that sort of thing and I think it's really important practice to do. Can you sort of give us some tips and tricks on what you what to actually look at what kind of questions to ask yourself when you're looking at someone else's work.
James Chiang 6:02
I think the first thing to do when, when I will at least what I do when I look at work is I just, I try to go in there without any prejudice. And sometimes that's hard to do because someone might say, Oh, that's a great piece of animation Look at her and this is an awesome clip of acting or filmmaking, and you already have that bias because of someone's opinion, but I think when you go into it and it's like watching a movie, I'd like to not have any expectations and just go,
let's let's see what that first
impression is, and I do the same thing even as I mentor students and teach I look at their work the first time is always the most accurate impression. I'll feel immediately doesn't connect. Is it is it is there a fascinating element is there this texture that sucks you in. So when I, when I tell people to learn to study where first see what it does for you, because if it doesn't connect with you you have to ask two questions.
Why does it connect.
Is it because of your lack of education, or your prejudice or your bias or because you are, you know you're not sure you're not connecting with it, because sometimes you have to really, when you connect to something then you have that interest so I always say, when you look for something to study. The first hump to get over is just look at things that he then enjoy that you enjoy first then inspire you, because then you'll have more motivation to kind of look at study it in terms of say a piece of animation you will start studying the timing to go, Wow, This scene, it really is something really exciting about it it has this energy or power, and you start breaking it down into well animation is these basic things shapes timing movements weight forces and all these other elements and then you start breaking out well. What is great about it is it is it because of character still waiting and how did that animate again that heaviness in there and then that heaviness or that weakness in that scene, and to the emotion of the scene didn't make it great or didn't take it away. And usually when you look at work you love the artists have done a lot of thinking a lot of hard work to convince you of the reality they want to present to you. And I think
Unknown Speaker 8:07
looking at work that way,
James Chiang 8:09
you really start to start to follow in the footsteps of the Creator, which is not only enjoy for you as an audience or as a fan of art, but also a joy to the creator knowing that someone else looking at your at their work is is seen when they're seeing now, it's kind of similar
like
you know what people say about Mark Rothko painting my uncle's a famous abstract expressionism. Some people crying, those paintings and it's because they get it, they go they're going through the emotions that the artists went through in the creative piece of work in animation. A lot of our work is performance and emotion. In, the otters works very very hard as you and I know that you create or at least simulate that illusion that there's a story going on, and these characters aren't just some bunch of digital data, moving on in the computer screen or audible or ink and pencil on a piece of paper that is suddenly living. I always remember this great quote from I think Jones's book and then how a little girl said to him, you know, he said what do you do for a living, he says I drop out. And he goes on to draw pictures of Bugs Bunny I mean as if the kid had to correct him and that's really true because he's created something that people believe
Unknown Speaker 9:22
is real and
James Chiang 9:24
great animation I think does that I think when we look for work that has that pole towards you. That's the first step, looking at that and then being inspired by it, and then breaking it down analytically, and then going okay what are these, you got these awesome 12 principles animation look at those principles and say, Okay, let's grab one of those principles let's say forces and go well, how the force is being used. Understood. And what does it convey here. Can you see it very obvious, a lot of the big animators works. Some animators have a lot of charm and Google that piece of work just makes me smile then you go well what is it what's in the appeal What is the use of the straights and curves, how are they handling the timing and the shapes and the spacing of the movement of those frames that make you believe that wow that character, really feel sweet and our sad or, that, that, that to me is animation and when when is that exciting. It's not hard to study it, I think.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 10:22
So how do you go about approaching a shot. Can you talk a little bit about phrasing and how you think your way through a scene from beginning to
James Chiang 10:30
approaching a scene I spend a lot of time thinking about the scene I remember when I was animating full time, or even when I was directing, I would think a lot about the purpose of the work. I always believed that you know you got three fundamentals you got purpose, then you kind of got preparation then you got to do it, that's, that's it that's that's pretty much the three principles of this craft, and I look at a scene I go well. What's the meaning of this shot, where does it sit in sequence if it's a film or if it's a game animation, what is it here to do, what does that character as a character just slicing something out because you're slicing something out and no one's because it's, you know, facing an adversary and it's supposed to slice it this way or this character there's little money comes in and she's frightened, for a reason. As frightened because of something that happened before a previous scene animators. I think the best animators always think a lot about not only what's happening in their seat but what happened after the scene what's coming next, then you realize that you're animating a point in time, and a moment of performance and emotion and movement. I mean, at the end of the day, all we do is control space, and shape. Right, or Time, time and space are very hard things to separate that's what people always
Unknown Speaker 11:48
say spacing is timing right but space
Unknown Speaker 11:50
and time and space time continuum they're, they're kind of connected,
James Chiang 11:53
but we really controls
shape, and how they move right that's the essence of animation so we go and these are our tools. So when I'm when I'm thinking about the shot I'm thinking okay how am I going to convey these ideas. If this scene is this character's really sad because of something sent to that character you've seen before and now you're expressing that character's disappointment.
You have to get into that character you have to go, Well,
what does that character going through, you have to get into it if it's a child you have to get into that child mindset. And if you can act it out. Find somebody or similar scene that can be some of those ideas that have been done before, haven't another artists approach it. How are you going to approach Are you going to use video camera to shoot yourself or schita. I used to shoot colleagues, whilst I'm active they're better actors. Looking great actors get ideas when people do when they. What kind of facial expressions How do people behave when they're in those states of mind. I use a mirror a lot when I animate, even more so than video.
And I come they'll, I'll do
a lot of planning, because of my 2d background I I plan a lot I explore the rhythm of a scene. So I draw a lot of these things called heart monitors teach my students the same thing thinking about where the phrasing of the dialogue happens the movement and they may not all line up. And that's what's beautiful animation has its hands freezing things happen at different times they overlap. And that's really exciting because you go wow there's a lot of texture, but if you don't plan your work out. If you don't plan an lm go okay this shot is 300 frames, when does this character have to come through the door when is it going to dip its head when it's going to make this expression when is it going to say this line. You're going to be confused when you animate because
animation although the goal of art
is incredibly simple.
The tools to to express that art it's complex right it's very very complicated 3d zillion tools zillion controls on every rig. So I go through that process, I think, exactly what that seems about. I know the emotions I know when the character is,
I know what it's going to do
and where it's coming from where it's going to
unless I can answer those
questions. In other words, the basic wise and wise, and how, with the help comes later but not least the why and well where you know where is the seat happenings and then schoolhouses in the bathrooms in the room incident. So just a closer shot you have to know all these things before you do it. And
once you do that any kind of a framework, you know,
it's kind of like painting, you know, painting doesn't work without a frame right, you need a border, and you have to create borders for your scene at least in your mind and then you put it down on paper, it's something I want to write about soon as putting things on paper because there's so many ideas in your head, there's so many options and once you narrow them down. You're going to be lost you won't know how to proceed. So after that.
Then I block then I think about
where to lay out the scenes I'll put in basic things now if it's a complicated scene, say has a moving camera I may have chosen to animate this scene straight ahead and say, there's a moving camera it's not too long. There's a lot of mechanics involved that may choose to plan the work is straight out which means other know where I'm going. Before I
Unknown Speaker 15:03
go, because
James Chiang 15:04
then I'll take a very stop motion approach to it right just run through the scene. Sometimes there's an advantage working straight ahead. Because you have more motion and feeling and you have better movement of your spline is not as messy it's a little cleaner as body better body mechanics, but if you don't have a good plan of the various destination points which are usually your key story moments, you can get lost I used to know animators that would not find very much great animators but they would animate and
kind of get to know where the scene was going.
Because, Andrew was just following this wonderful journey which is a very fine art approach but it doesn't work in this very,
you know, very commercial field where you know you have a definite
story you know you don't want to put the director on what's, why is the carrot over here. You know I used to happen to me when I was drafting sometimes anime would take it somewhere I'm like, where are you going with this scene, it's not what this is about. And you have to catch them I think this is why. And so, animators go whoops I was really off. This was not what the sort of scene was about or and it happens even to the best of animators there they they think differently because part of the creative process is exploring the unknown right. And at the end of the day it's all unknown, because not too much unlike a 2d animator who deals with a piece of paper. In many ways a 3d animator is also dealing with a blank.
Unknown Speaker 16:24
You know yes you pop it there.
James Chiang 16:26
But unless you move it every bunch of frames you got nothing in terms
of time.
Right, it's got a frozen hold and that's the scariest thing for every animator just as a blank page is very scary for 2d animator. I remember I've always be scared with a blank page and I'm gonna create this all over again. Yeah. In 3d you've got a free perspective in the free rig. But the problem is, you got to move it properly now, now it has to meet the expectations that you have set up for yourself and for the audience right. You can you can you can fail them now and that pressures is, is an interesting challenge, so that's that's kind of how I produce my work and how I work and there's the same approach that I I guide towards for my students.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 17:09
Even a beautiful piece in your blog about posing, I was wondering if you could recap on that maybe hit some of the main points on a great pose.
James Chiang 17:20
I think it's a lot to do with that that preparation phase. Because a lot of people think that posing, it kind of just happened spontaneously it will you'll see a, you know, an Andrea, a shower or somebody or trying to manufacture or blend cane or am I really great to the animators or 3d animators they pose something it looks exciting right and you don't see the hardware behind it, you know you don't see it looks like even myself sometimes I'll whip out a pose. Oh, people say hey you just whip that out so easily they attribute it to talent, but they don't realize if I just whip that out I've done it before. I've done it before. And if it's something new, then I guarantee you that a lot of work has been done, thinking about the shapes that may sell that idea. It's a great pose and I'm looking at one of the shapes to sell that idea because if it doesn't sell the idea. It doesn't matter if it has appeal, doesn't matter as the proportion of straights and curves and doesn't matter if it has force and weight and dimension and all these things that make good
good and believable.
But it's the purpose behind it first because of it necessarily the idea, it's got, that's the number one priority once that's established. I look at, you know, are the shapes from various perspectives, not just saying what perspective camera view front view but I'm talking about. If you were to look at this pose far away. When you look at it up close. This is still showing that same idea. Is it clear, is the idea that we're not just the idea but the believability in terms of the physicality, if it's if it's a hose of a character that just looks extremely exhausted, how you handle the legs how you handle the arms the tilt of the sign
is that indicating that idea
isn't indicating that the body is given out that the mind is fatigued. What's happening to the fingertips, on the fingers right now is the hand dropping from the wrists because it has no force left that characters exhausted. Is the tilt of the head and the angle of the face, presenting that idea clearly,
so I'm always looking at that, it's always about
the acting or story side of it first.
Unknown Speaker 19:32
Because when you got that you're already halfway there to appeal,
James Chiang 19:34
because you will have no choice but to make your animation or your pose, have the right shapes because
Unknown Speaker 19:41
those those shapes
James Chiang 19:42
are wrong, it won't read, so you just keep going after making it read so that's what happens to me if it doesn't look good optics it's like a lot of good animators 2d and 3d it's like, like for myself for example I, if I post something in my brain will automatically tell me that way is not believable. And I have to shut the character further to the left and put more weight on that left leg and then I realized oh now that's happened I gotta shoot that that hip over, and then the shoulders going to be affected because the entire body is connected to each other. And then you realize by just obeying those instincts, which you learn as you become more and more tune with the craft, more and more in tune with the human anatomy or animal anatomy wherever you're animating, you start to see better and I I firmly believe that you can really understand, you can really appreciate or even love something unless you understand it, and the understanding comes first from knowledge and knowledge comes from just learning just constantly opening your eyes, whether you're a realistic animator and I want to get this. You know this lion flying through the air, grabbing this guy to look really nice like what they did with the tiger and say, was like a pie or something I was was really great Scott Tiger was amazing so believable, not just in terms of the technicalities in terms of the lighting and the materials and all that, but how it was animated was very believable or like the gorillas and Tarzan, you can see the weight of the flesh pushing in as the, as the gorillas put their, their paws on or the hands on the ground and see that in Tarzan, you see that in great films like Ratatouille you see really great physicality with the characters. I think that's what I go for when I make the pose I'm thinking about that purpose, and then just keep going after the shapes to kind of work with that to go for that. And also thinking again about before and after. Does that pose look like. It's in transit, if that makes sense, doesn't look like it's in transit because in reality. We're rarely sell. I mean look at children animals they don't sit still for you. I'm in charge of a portrait of a little kid or, or an animal trying to draw an animal I used to. I used to struggle with that I used to go to the zoo and dry animals, a lot of it, and I'd be like person can you just stay still for a second, they're always moving and then you realize, oh, in order to draw them you almost have to be a bit like a hunter you know hunters your snipers they kind of, watch, watch things move in cadence. But as an animator as a draftsman or an artist you kind of have a little bit like 100 you're after something. And once you kind of move in that cadence of that character, whatever you're animating you kind of go Oh, this is, this is capturing it This looks like that leg is in transit in the way shifting to the right side and now
Unknown Speaker 22:30
here's the beautiful thing.
James Chiang 22:32
If you get the physicality and the forces believable and enjoyable to use an animator, it starts to look good, you start to get a feel you start to have great poses I think this is why, again, Glenn Keens work it's so powerful for a lot of great artists and non vital teacher David Priscilla awesome Disney animated one of the most gentle kindness people I've ever met, and watching him drawn showing us a little bit about animation when I was at Disney training. It was amazing, seeing how you know there's this joy in doing the work there's this joy and finding the pose and that search and joy shows up. It's a crazy thing. It's like a painting to you. I always say to my students you can really see whether someone
is enjoying the work.
And you see it when they're struggling at the same time you know look at the work they struggle here in this area they had fun in this area they were a little confused here they really got it, they really got in here they they had a lot of a great time and they felt the way they went what went well. This is why long scenes are so hard. It's hard to sustain that level of concentration and excellence, and not lose yourself here and there as the webbing seems often go only to the SAR animators or the supervisors. They choose their own shots but it makes sense because it requires a little bit more experience. Yeah.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 23:54
I wanted to ask you what should be on animators checklist before they submit their shutter new at each of the stages
Unknown Speaker 24:02
checklist
James Chiang 24:04
is tricky again readability the Sinclair technique is that there
is it isn't believable. Is it physically when you are selling something in a 3d world, like a three dimensional world but it's still real world inside that virtual universe doesn't look like it sits in space in the office or jungle whenever you're animating it doesn't look like it's part of that world, because once you do that, you're like a magician that whoops the rabbit came up the other side. Before you were ready to reveal it. Then you kind of blew it so that physical believability.
The third thing is,
is there some is the energy right does it connect, is there that intangible quality it makes them more than just movement, right because animation. Oftentimes is confused with movement for a lot of non animators and beginning animators they think I just want to move it this way I want to move at this from a they're not thinking of a purpose behind the movement, but worst of all is is when they're moving something and
it's not doing anything. It's movement or movement say
give me like a paper just throwing paint around for no reason that just thrown around a felt like flicking the wrist. You can't do that. So that's the first three things. Afterwards, I mean those are the main three things. If you look at them more technically I always make a list, say when I go to dailies make the list as well but even beforehand, I'd be like, is a believable and when you look at that believability physicality always look at a whole bunch of things you have to look at those forces there's a weight, there is a consistency in how you use the shapes, is the character on model. And I don't mean online it's easy to think it online a lot of 3d animators think they're on model in 3d and I often think they're not, it's amazing it's hard to see your model in 2d because of craftsmanship and the consistency between different styles of draftsman, but it's really I often, I've been on a lot of films where it was inconsistent. And it's because there wasn't a cohesive plan and discipline amongst the group or the leadership or whatever,
to kind of hold
that that idea that this character is always going to move a little bit like this. This character is always gonna have this kind of smile, it's gonna have this kind of way this is this is its range of personality and that range of personalities coincides
with a range of physicality
is this character always going to be this kind of heavy no lead Characters Main characters tend to have more range because just the nature of the characters are supposed to be you know the hero can be everything you know it can be funny. Exciting athletic blah blah blah a little bit formulaic sometimes but I prefer characters that are a little bit more narrow definition so sometimes that's really interesting watching character within its narrow, you know, kind of characterization. So, I made that list, does it hit those elements, you know, and then, you know, on model physically on model,
mentally, emotionally, in terms of character performance.
Then I started looking at the technicals physical shapes. So what I wanted wanted to say Do they look good in those shapes smoke
is the is the
is the belief is the timing and the rhythm of the shot. the movement is an interesting thing that I want to look at for the for the time period that I'm looking at someone shot, because if it's just repeating say boom boom boom the same deeds and you get bored really quickly, and you learn that really quickly when you watch your scene a lot, and this is why sometimes watching your scene a lot is a good thing, but watching it too much is also a bad thing because then you get used to it, or whether it's good or bad, you might have a bad scene tends to look good after a while, but a good scene tends to look bad. It's you know, we get really,
Unknown Speaker 27:49
we just adapt that's how
James Chiang 27:50
we are so I always say try to keep a fresh look at your work, you know, swipe feedback is important, but I start looking at those elements and noticing on the checklist as you're looking at flaws now this is more towards polishing the seat, but it was not a Polish level I will need a little that yet I won't be alone you know whether it's something clicks or whatever. But I'm looking at the main thing so selling that story
doesn't look like it's
on par with what's going on the story does that hook up with the shots before and after.
Unknown Speaker 28:17
Then is presented to
James Chiang 28:19
to the directors whoever looks at it declined so whatever your project is.
Then I always bring a notepad. I'm always amazed
at animators that go to dailies and don't have a notepad it blows me away. I'm like,
Unknown Speaker 28:30
how do you remember everything, because
James Chiang 28:33
not only am I writing down what didn't work in the shot or what the director wanted I'm also writing down what was the expression of my direct director did little happy face on my notes. He didn't like that at all I got really off that or this is something that really bothered him and this is something they really loved they loved it the movement the energy that because that is a guide that kind of gives you a feeling on what direction because again it comes back to direction where were you going with your shot. And then, because usually in dailies it's not technical stuff that's brought up. Right, it's always directional it's always about performance, acting and sometimes we are the characters supposed to be in a shot.
Unknown Speaker 29:11
Sometimes the director goes no no I want I want the character
James Chiang 29:13
to come in here, not here I love you I love what you do but it doesn't matter, we're not, we're not moving them over there. And then of course you freak out inside there all night. This is why it's so important to think about your work, so much before you do it, and I know some people are scared of that because of deadlines. But I find the tighter the deadline, the more it's more important that I think about it, I may compress that time that I think
about the shot but I think about it.
Clearly because doing it over is worse. And it frightens me so that's kind of my checklist just so I don't get myself in too much trouble I never, and I sometimes ask myself did I overestimate it did I move it too much. And make sure those axes are, you know, crossed off I didn't do those things, because if you're if it's gonna be noisy and confusing. You know you're inviting trouble I remember sometimes seeing dailies certain animators would show their work. And I'm like amazed that they showed it because it's confusing. And when asked about why they did it. They didn't know. And that's a bad position to be in. So I will say be very very prepared have no I love that question you have a checklist because then you know i mean pilots I remember flying over New York City with a friend who flew airplanes. And I remember asking the question of seeing your fly needs to fly you know fighter fighter plane so that he really knows how to fly, but we're in this tiny little, I will kind of claim the largest passenger plane just people in it. And I saw that he had a list. And he went through it. And the lists look really simple it's like turn on lists I was like oh god, why don't you notice, and he goes, it doesn't matter. This is, this is what we do every single time we go through that checklist
before we go anywhere.
And it doesn't matter if you're like the world's ace pilot. And this is why pilots always have a call to make sure that that's got right, everything's double checked, not just check but double check.
A lot of animators would
do very well to learn that learn that level of professionalism and I think that would really help them because I don't think I'd be able to animate anything to my level if I didn't prepare well in terms of my work. I was just not that smart I can remember. So,
Sandra Ni Chonaola 31:23
I wanted to circle back around and something you said about over animating. How do you know when enough is enough it's I mean it's a tricky thing right because we all have a shot you really love and you want to show off a little bit. Yeah, we all
Unknown Speaker 31:37
have that because you know
James Chiang 31:40
i mean this is why we want to be animators it's a place for personal expression
window of opportunity of glory
Unknown Speaker 31:48
for other people, it's just really putting yourself in it shouldn't be it should be this is your chance to have some fun.
James Chiang 31:53
Over animation I was
guilty of a lot early part of my career,
because
I think it's a natural tendency to overcompensate for not thinking about the shot. I think I think it comes down
Unknown Speaker 32:09
to that.
James Chiang 32:10
And because when you think about the shot a lot.
You realize it's your shots. I learned this from my old mentor.
Wayne Gilbert was my teacher shared it with great a great man and someone I'm always indebted to become one little wonderful little lesson he said you know, you know, you don't have all the time in the world people look at what was a painting I did emotion College has made it all subtle and he was like,
Unknown Speaker 32:36
No,
James Chiang 32:37
no, we can read that subtlety and he was right because he just goes by once.
So that tells you your ideas have been remarkably simple, and then only when you start to get
much older as an artist more mature as an artist you realize oh my goodness and listen. These are complicated, especially with the 3d tool. It was easy to overestimate in 2d it's even easier admin or 3d, because the process is so you have so many juicy tools to work with and all the wild funky stuff.
Unknown Speaker 33:09
The, it's like
James Chiang 33:10
it's like being in a kitchen and there's like 30 different knives and you want to use all of them, but you really only need one or two, or whatever you're doing for that night. And we forget that as admin especially in the beginning, and sometimes the tools confuse you, so you over animate you have too many ideas. I want to do this and this is cool, that's cool. Yeah.
I always I to me this is the benchmark I asked myself
when I'm by myself and I don't have somebody to show.
If this work wasn't mine.
What, what, how would I assess this. What do I feel about this and I'll see them.
And sometimes the help that I will flip the camera will use usually before we had all these fancy tools I would just bring up a mirror of your version that go.
That is too much
more all played at half speed, sometimes elevate at twice the speed, and it gives you a different perspective because like I said our, we have this adaptive thing it's like people have too much money they develop headed headedness to get adaptation you know they get used to comfort they get used to, good stuff I can't live without my Porsche you know kind of thing.
And animators they have the
Unknown Speaker 34:18
opposite, they see something and after a while,
James Chiang 34:21
the wave doesn't
Unknown Speaker 34:22
look bad to them anymore.
James Chiang 34:24
It doesn't look like too much animation, it looks like,
well, what am I doing that, MPC I don't want to hold there I want to do something. And they forget that you know like Wayne said you shouldn't you're just seeing this one time, you're not to see all that stuff, you're only seeing one major thing. And I think this is why there's a big movement towards holds and stillness now in animation, sometimes it's taken too much to an extreme where animation is lost a little bit it's juiciness and joy.
But at the end of the day, you know,
animation still just a division of film and film is this visual medium that passes by, you know people forget that when you're animating nine revealing one one frame at a time, and that's 124, that's for 100, less than that, actually. Well that goes by really quick. And you see it a lot, both on the mechanic side and the acting side now there's a woman character too much, but they also have too many ideas. And sometimes when I work with
Unknown Speaker 35:20
students I try to remind them but
James Chiang 35:22
at the same time I still allow them to do it, because they don't make that mistake. They'll never learn and then they'll sometimes say to me Why didn't you tell me to cut this off and I go well I can't afford to. It's not my right to to
rob you of the experience of failure that's what
Unknown Speaker 35:40
usually gets
James Chiang 35:41
them to relax a little bit,
but it's kind of true, because that's
the only way I learned her was through over animating and doing too much. And because it's part of this tool is part of this art is you have to do you have to explore it. Right. And part of exploration is going to being going overboard as part of that experience, and you learn from that and then you've got to pull back now. I learned now. Oh man, he's two years old, we're at an age now on this show, it's quieter, it's quieter and I remember when they did frozen, an animator was talking to me and say how they had big meetings and brought everyone in telling everybody to under, under animate nowhere by like 50 60%. In order to just comment right down to suit the movie. Right. And that was a smart move while on the on the team directors and supervisors I
Unknown Speaker 36:26
think that was a wise move.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 36:30
So, what about them the other spectrum where you direct is asking you to fill a lot of information into smaller time. I think you talked about this before you had a shot where your director asked you to fit like a character to a whole bunch of stuff and,
James Chiang 36:42
yeah, the director. It's not his fault. It's my fault. I always say, if I have. If I, you know, that means I didn't solve one shot. Well, you may want more than I didn't do a good job. Because the truth that at the end of the day the movie of the project is theirs. And I wish, I wish, I wish I had an older version of myself just slap me in the head and shut up. It just okay. It is his movie. You got to do it that way. You may not agree you have the right to not agree, but
your. That's your job. And,
too. Sometimes Yeah,
I remember it was I was asked to put three beats in a shot was about four seconds long, and I'm like oh god I knew was trouble right from the start. By that I was starting to learn a lot more about filmmaking I spent quite a bit of time studying film and screenplays at the time on the side just learning, understanding the toes. A lot of the work of Stanislavski and David Mamet was talking about film love David Mamet a very famous Pulitzer Prize winning, writer, director as well and he talked about.
No films like Dumbo.
Now sometimes the ideas were so simple and yet it's so perfect. It just, just nails the emotion and then bill title his work was a good example of it, it doesn't over animate but it's not afraid to be big. Yeah, it's not important to be big and and that's that's a hard thing to learn to find that balance between
an overestimating and under estimating.
It's not easy and every animator will take a different approach to a shot, everyone will animate it differently. But I always find the best scenes are the ones where you look at it, sometimes I like looking at a change faster shot or something and I'll be like, kind of can't think of a better way to animate. That's, that's great, that's just it just seems so perfect it's like an actor that plays a role there, you just can't imagine another actor and they're like can you imagine, I was just watching Forrest Gump last night again. And you just can't imagine anyone else but Tom Hanks, look at that character it's just perfection, you wouldn't want it any other way. It just doesn't work don't remake that please. I bet they probably will someday, destroy it. But, but that's, that's kind of what you aim for as an animator, you want to make your
scene or as an artist, you
want to make your work. Just be so true,
because when it's true, isn't it the it raises the odds of making that kind of work that kind of work where you go, Oh, I wouldn't do it any other way and then the questions are overestimating under estimating starts to disappear because when you're true to the scene and you're going out the scene where a character tumbling to the ground and gets up and it's angry, then it's gonna require some serious physicality, it may require a very energetic headshake or a movement. Sometimes you know people think great acting or animations always a still quiet stuff I think that's also a wrong approach, if you look at some really great actors like Daniel Day Lewis or, or, or even the jack Reacher some sometimes or even an RPG and sometimes they can be very, very big. And you know that's so spot on that's that's what it needs to be when you look at the beast, you know that's a very loud character,
Unknown Speaker 39:46
but it needs to be.
James Chiang 39:48
That's who that character is. And you just have to be appropriate. I think that's,
Unknown Speaker 39:53
that's probably the,
James Chiang 39:54
that's a word on my list when I'm looking at animation i'm saying
Unknown Speaker 39:57
is it appropriate as, just as a hit.
James Chiang 39:59
No right on. And then you'll, you'll realize how much movement is too much or too well.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 40:06
Along the similar lines, how do you deal with getting a note from a director, that you don't necessarily agree with, or even just start off direction because I find sometimes those scenes tend to end up a little flat because an animator can't get into the mindset of what you know that scene needs to be. So I'm terrible I
Unknown Speaker 40:24
think I've had trouble once
Unknown Speaker 40:25
because I asked the question.
James Chiang 40:28
So often asking, but I always like to dig into what
the director really want.
Unknown Speaker 40:34
Because,
James Chiang 40:35
you know, directors are humans too and I know I'm not just saying that because I've been a director.
It's not easy to be a director, you, you,
you have to be on top of everything you're looking at so many things throughout the day. Not just animation but lighting layout and all sorts of things one story that when it comes to looking at your work, and goes I want it this way. Maybe he or she's not sure either, because this animation business film is sometimes amazed that movies can get made. I'm like, that's a lot of
Unknown Speaker 41:05
people who have
James Chiang 41:06
such tremendous respect for any film, even if it isn't good. By so called normal standards or people standards but it's a very very difficult thing to do to make make movies and because it's so large, it's just it's like if you're a classical composer and you're writing, like the referee, you know, Batman and often system may be a million minute piece of music, then you're like this is how I mean, can you imagine making like, you know, Lord of the Rings like Peter Jackson did or Lord's raid in those movies or forever. I mean, where do you kind of what do you, how do you make all this work, how do you get all these extras and animators and actors and all that work together. It's a miracle you look at the credit list. So, what do I do when I, when I see a scene that's not clear. Clearly presented by the director or maybe I didn't understand the burger. I wouldn't ask,
how would you like it I remember asking
Unknown Speaker 41:59
one director.
James Chiang 42:01
hours are saying I didn't get my estimate he was he's awesome because he's an awesome artist. He just oh yeah he apparently drew it for me. And I remember my friend Alex will say, isn't that awesome when you have director that can draw. Yes it is. And he just showed me.
Unknown Speaker 42:16
I get what you mean.
James Chiang 42:18
Because sometimes, you know we're all visual artists and a lot of these ideas can't be presented orally or in terms of words or, you know, it wasn't the great poets that I used to say that words are crude, they're crude they don't, they can't express what a painting, or a moving image can relay or music can relate, right. So sometimes it's too. I just asked if they can show me.
Unknown Speaker 42:43
And this is perhaps
James Chiang 42:44
why when I taught or even when I directed I often draw over people's work. Just to give them. Oh, this is kind of what I want. I'm telling you this but I'm also showing you. Not all directors do that. Some directors just get up on their seat and start acting which is really great. At the end of the day it's all communication that clarity. And sometimes it won't be clear you'll you'll you'll go back to your desk you'll animate and you realize you're confused. And then it becomes a process sometimes it gets ugly where you do a shot, and it will go back and forth, back and forth, and then you, then you realize okay. This one's been a tough one. And you just have to learn how to manage the disappointment, or the difficulty. And then, because that shot will end to eventually, it has to be approved or shipped off to someone else if it's not great. I remember doing a shot that was didn't work in the director's eyes and they went to like three or four hands and then they came to me. Even I couldn't make it work and it turned out the reason was because the director didn't like the read didn't like
Unknown Speaker 43:43
the read by
James Chiang 43:44
the actor so it was none of the animators fault, but sometimes the shot goes through that.
And everyone learns from
it, and I'm grateful for that experience not just because it's an interesting story or memorable story for me, or other people. You learn, you learn that this process is not perfect.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 44:03
What is the most challenging experience of your career so
James Chiang 44:06
my goodness, it's all challenging.
I think the challenging thing is,
Unknown Speaker 44:18
how do you say
James Chiang 44:19
stay true to the craft.
I think that's,
I preach it a lot on my blog and as a teacher.
It gets so easy to be distracted. Whether you're starting
Junior admin or you're worried about keeping a job you're worried about your quota. You're freaking out about the guy next to you, you're a veteran animator you're scared of the next young person that just came in that's animating twice as fast as you or your supervisor now realize everyone wants to have job, productive producers and wonder why well he's not animating he supposed to be animated while he's your supervisor. And when you're a director you're worried about pleasing the client you're worrying about your crew, having done all the above. Every job is stressful. And you're filled with anxiety that robs you of the experience of being an artist. And you can be an artistic director a lighter animator compositor and I've
Unknown Speaker 45:13
lot of friends in the various fields and
James Chiang 45:15
we're all artists. I know some fine artists commercial artist is not artists because of the intent of the world but I don't really agree I think just a different outlet. And I think the hardest part is just not being pulled out of the crack and starting to worry about these other things,
because that energy,
Unknown Speaker 45:35
often can be negative,
James Chiang 45:37
it can spiral into an exponential sort of negativity and then people start complaining about the film and
directors are whining that this doesn't work it's not
the movie I want to make and then producers are on in this person's case in that person's case in the animation time and then you worry about all these things I actually had nothing to do with animation, nothing to do the art, and you have to remind yourself, you almost, I almost feel like, you know,
Unknown Speaker 46:01
he just put a red.in their head symbolize that, you know,
James Chiang 46:05
their faith. Belief in unity
of holiness.
And I was reanimator said something similar. We have that symbol in front of our desk or monitor I just remind you, you gotta stay focused on what's important, and going,
I'm here to do art.
I don't care what people think about it. I'm gonna do my best at my job. And I think. Yes, that sounds incredibly unsexy or boring. Because it's
inside those words come back it's discipline.
The biggest thing that discipline isn't
you know doing your push ups
Unknown Speaker 46:38
it's the discipline is
James Chiang 46:40
staying focused on why you're here, and what you're doing here. And when you're doing yours. This is your opportunity while providing a living and for yourself,
Unknown Speaker 46:51
you're, you're, you're expressing
James Chiang 46:53
yourself this is your voice of personal expression, at least while you have this job, you may change your mind like right now I don't animate anymore I spend a lot more time painting teaching.
So, I keep very focused on
what I'm doing whatever I'm doing I give it 100%, and it was like that whether that was directing or supervising or working in story. It was 100%, and it's about the crowd. So to me that's the difficult part not allowing those other things to bother you,
Unknown Speaker 47:22
and they will.
James Chiang 47:23
And you have to eat and they're like weeds in the garden right they're just gonna show up. I mean, there's a great story of, you know,
Unknown Speaker 47:30
being a farmer I grew up on a farm,
James Chiang 47:33
many generations farmers in my family. And I remember seeing my dad and he was just always sowing seeds. And I was gonna bite you so so many was asking like why uses so many seeds. And
a lot of them don't make.
And as a kid I thought that was interesting. A lot of seeds that we haven't been zillion pumpkins or whatever. When they were planting them at the time. It was followed not always a lot of stuff, and you realize you have to do a lot of good, you have to constantly put in that focus on doing your craft, and then
I remember him spending a lot of time weeding.
It just incredibly boring for me as a kid I was like, I don't want to. And he asked me to do it I didn't want to do it but when you go out on a farm you work on the farm. And you you resent it because your other buddies are camping and going to Disneyland or something here in summertime I'm out of school actually having fun with them work on the farm. And then I realized, I learned a lot from that, because my dad was always weeding is always taken away in the garden, removing the excess of the trouble that attacked his garden, whether it be birds or insects or whatever it was all this is always gonna pursue an animation when you're in this career there'll be always a lot of things that will take you away from being an artist. And when you're the higher you move. It's harder.
This is, trust me on this the higher human level you would assume
Unknown Speaker 48:51
for directing you move into running a company
James Chiang 48:54
or boy, the forces that come there. It's more than a sparrow, I mean, grab your seats. It feels like dinosaur coming by and stomping on everything you're working on, and it feels like in that part it was very hard to deal with. And I think a lot of people try to get their projects on board and to sell their films, and I know a lot of people are right now a lot of my peers are developing their own projects building their own companies and it's just a constant battle, they're spending 50 60% of time battling business decisions and business questions and marketing questions you know oh my god I thought I was an artist, and it makes me laugh because I used to be in business I wanted to run away from it but as I moved up the business I sneaked all the way back in, and it infiltrates and as an artist, you have to go Okay, I'm gonna stay really focused. So that part was the hardest part. It isn't the art, the artists, everything that's hard in the art makes you stronger, it just discovered one every time you screw up a senior. Now you know the next is to do it differently and you'll learn and it's
Sandra Ni Chonaola 49:58
an amazing answer. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 50:01
As usual,
Sandra Ni Chonaola 50:04
when we last talk to him You give me some advice on being elite one of the notes that I wrote down was. You said that it's our job to keep the empathy alive, and it's hard to put that into practice like into words how to put into practice, but you want to try. Wow.
Unknown Speaker 50:20
I tried to put in practice.
James Chiang 50:23
Just animating a drawing it saying it and so I think what I meant by that strange word using the word empathy. Such a psychological term. What I mean is, I think, as, as, when you when you have when you assume a position of leadership or authority. I think you have tremendous responsibility. I remember when I was directing, I, I always took the approach and I always felt that I would continue to feel that way that if I'm
again in a position like that.
You're, you're there for the staff, not the other way around. You're, you're there for your animators when you're a director when you're an animation lead or animation director, you're there for the team, because they're the ones that make it happen. mean yes you give a direction and you may have an idea. You might have a story department and they make it happen. It's the artists that do the work. So, if you remember that empathy becomes natural and you start to feel the burden is on them. Now they're doing the work they're your your your animators you and they're the ones grinding it out, you know, frame by frame minute by minute, hour by hour month by month on this project, whatever project is. And if you lose sight of that. Then again, you start focusing on yourself. And that's, that's a, I find that a dangerous place to be because I, whenever that's happened to me, I made mistakes. And because it's, it's, I'm in South Australia but if you, if you think too much about yourself,
you kind of lose sense of your environment,
you know you'll lose sense
Unknown Speaker 52:03
of reality you get obsessed with your
James Chiang 52:06
your ego
sex and it just stinks and because all of us are insecure and every artists well it's entered my eyes, to remind myself, especially when I was leading that we're all human and artists, especially not more human than anybody else but we're especially vulnerable we're all very very sensitive creatures. And it's because of being so in tune or sensitivity, we are able to create the kind of art that we create. We're trying to create more of that connection with people through these, you know what Mark Rothko says, or calls these plastic means plastic means or tools or the paint is painted animations is CG. Those are your tools that we have to kind of convey it with shapes and timing and movement. Your artists are doing all this, using very bizarre tools when you think about it, if you're a show me my 30 years ago I know what the heck is I know the first time I saw CG animation
Unknown Speaker 53:03
or something I
James Chiang 53:04
still do to the time I looked at it like, why are all these wires like what, why is all this wireframe sides oh so can you animate them so I remember it was a friend of mine and Nick Craven excellent music supervisor and watching him do CG. He had everything set on wireframe so extra confused, like what is this stuff like, how do you see anything. What do you do, and we all have these bizarre tools, a good friend of mine used to say, you know it's it's, you know, don't worry about James is just like the matrix and I use that joke with my students now it's just the matrix just ignore the green lines. It's just code, at the end of the day and it's. I always find that kind of fascinating because you realize wow, we do really hard stuff here it goes really simple but the work is hard so I always want to feel for my staff, I always want to feel for the teams I work with or even because it's hard. It's hard and when you remember that you you remember okay. They may not always get all the notes you want as a director I remember when I was director I would always go again try to set up the scene so the entire lead of the scene is not on the shoulders of the animator, that if this anime is over animation is top flight
the scene still
works, either to. Good choice through my own editing when
Unknown Speaker 54:27
my editor,
James Chiang 54:28
or when I was directing I was gonna make a different directorial choice I saw scenes
Unknown Speaker 54:31
are heavier on on performance.
James Chiang 54:35
But usually those scenes
are given to stronger animators and sometimes to be given to a new animator, who wants to do the scene you help them through it. I remember sitting late at night, working with some animators helping them to their work. Because if you don't have that empathy, you won't do that. You just won't you go home. You go or you'll do what you feel is your job, not realizing actually looking after everyone under you. It's your job to and I know it's a it's a huge burden really when you think about it, but I can't think of it as a burden you just think of it as an opportunity. What a wonderful opportunity to help somebody. What a wonderful opportunity to, to help bring a little bit more clarity to the work that's being done. I think that's probably the best way to describe it a little bit more clarity. Well you can't get that clarity if you're clouded with your own ego or. Because when you think about it is comes down to your ego because it's all those responsibilities coming down on you. Right. I have to show better work great. And now you're the leader you assume the pressures, you got me, everybody's kicking butt on it and the reality is you have to manage some areas that don't work, and then take advantage the areas that really do well, you have to go back Okay, wow, these guys are doing really great sometimes
I remember,
assigning shots, and to supervise and like, I took a chance on the other side of the six shots this person is kind of new to it but. And they always surprise people always surprise on the upside. It's amazing when you give, when you give people faith. And you help them along a little bit to their to the boss. They just become better artists and then hopefully by default, they become better people because they, they are, they are have more faith in themselves, they become better artists and then that that grows they're better they get strong and they believe in themselves more, and you know who wins, you when you look good. That's the funny thing you don't aim for that but you when you end up looking good, and the animation looks great and then everyone else feels great. And I think that's what we have to focus on that, that perpetual kind of cycle that is positive, rather than, you know,
one of judgment and,
and just disappointment because it's easy to fall into that trap. And I'm hoping that more and more leads, take that approach to the work all the way up to, to produce it really, I think,
Sandra Ni Chonaola 56:44
how are you for time we don't have a lot of questions left but
Unknown Speaker 56:50
I left out pretty
James Chiang 56:54
long answers for you I'm sorry.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 56:55
No, no, I love it it's awesome you're actually covering a lot of questions that I was asking so it's nice for me just awesome. Actually, it's good. Oh cool, that's the best way. So let's say that planet Earth has been destroyed and we're moving off to another planet and one piece of animation, not viewers. But like any animation that was ever done what one would you take.
Unknown Speaker 57:14
Wow, that's a tough one.
Unknown Speaker 57:18
I guess I'm biased, but
James Chiang 57:20
I would probably grab a piece done by Bill Taylor.
Some of us work.
And it's an old film it's from Pinocchio. His work comes from Bali.
Some of his work from gumbo.
And because it just captures the essence of what this art form can be through such simple means as a line. And because you can describe the things that he does. You're like, that will explain that it just not only does it work and so it's. It feels like something new, even when I look at it today feels new because it's so true. It doesn't feel like a duplicate of someone's work, it's so sincere. It's so personal.
I mean you can say that about some
Unknown Speaker 58:10
of Glenn King's work and a lot of blood kids work or GameStop store or Eric Goldberg, there's so many great admission stuff that Andre stasia did on scar was amazing.
James Chiang 58:21
There's great 3d animators
out there they've done some awesome work as well. A lot of awesome work
Unknown Speaker 58:26
is, I would say, I agree with what Brad Bird says that there are more aimless animators today than maybe before, I agree. And I think he was referring to the skill, there's a lot of skill out there now. But
James Chiang 58:40
the intention behind this skill hasn't yet
caught up timeline is amazing. It's like stuff's been done a long time ago and, and you look at the work of Bill Taylors and the intention behind the motivation behind the work is so pure. It's so here, that
Sandra Ni Chonaola 59:02
he did say I'm gonna
Unknown Speaker 59:05
keep going.
James Chiang 59:08
Just saying that the purity of the work of those artists of all is what is what makes it great because like I said, your art reflects the Creator. One of the nicest thing I've ever seen nicest compliments I received on my own work was a painting on my wife, and someone says I can feel your love for her in that painting. That's the best compliment I could get for that because God hating even though it's out her really was out my emotions. You know I'm sharing, and it showed up,
Unknown Speaker 59:41
and I feel blessed that it is
James Chiang 59:43
oftentimes it doesn't right, oftentimes you try and try and it doesn't and. And when I look at bill tireless work. It's just it's such a heavyweight was animation because it doesn't have to be necessarily a powerful scene like I said you can grab Stromboli or grab the night off all mountain, but you can grab Dumbo totally different characters all three. Again, every time. It just grabs you
are some of the scenes I remember seeing James Baxter did
Moses in Prince of Egypt were just amazing. Just go through all the stuff that you saw Tarzan flying through the trees and you've got a Master's purely physical animation but knows way beyond that, it's way beyond physicality, because it's everything, every bit of joy that he had inside him. Put our paper and onto celluloid. But when pieces too hard for me.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:34
But I think it's,
James Chiang 1:00:36
you know, I guess it would say a lot of build type lists work, I think, because I grew up inspired by is what is probably the main reason I became an animator is when I saw his work, and then seeing the process of like like into the kind of work they do I was like wow that processes is awesome. So, that's what I would take and show some crazy aliens.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:58
To show okay this planet is worth
James Chiang 1:01:00
saving. There's some awesome stuff here. When they decide to blow us up or something, or whatever but that's because I think it's our art that leaves the best trace of our existence, because you'll forget I'm always saying you'll get a piece of great piece of Rembrandt work and you know a lot of people commissioned Rembrandt to paint them so that they can live in, you know, on forever but when people look at a Rembrandt, they don't care about the person who painted it. They care that it was a Rembrandt and now it was done, and that's, that's what's funny about it it's the Odyssey mark that lives. It's not the subject, it's the art, because it's a trace of our humanity. And that's, that's what makes art so great and in a way I think a lot of us are concerned about the mechanization of things and everything's becoming very mechanical now and I always see artists complain about motion capture or whatnot and I go well you have to find a way to bring the human into it or don't do it, you know if you can't, you can't do it in a medium don't do it, and that goes through any medium I think some people can find it in architecture and leave architecture and become an animator some people can't find it in animation anymore, and choose to find it in painting or live action or or whatever they choose to do. And it's it's it's very personal very different for everyone else, so that's that's my long, long answer again.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 1:02:25
So deadlines are getting a lot tighter and films are getting produced a lot quicker these days. I'm interested in your tips and how people can keep up the quality as well as the speed.
James Chiang 1:02:36
Oh, that's a tough one. I'm gonna keep giving you the same answer. I'm just being very very prepared. Yeah.
And know that like, if I remember once I did a shot and producer assistant producer came by Well, I know this needs more time but you've got two days, three days on this thing or two days and I'm like, gee whiz. Here we go again. And you just go okay. You can be upset at it but spend very little time being upset, but again not wasting the time there and go okay and then planet and go Kim, how am I gonna do this come up with strategy. How do you do it, and going okay. There was a moving camera I'll go straight ahead I will go through the stat mode and explain it because it will not be enough time to set today shot, whatever. And know that what is the shot about what's the essence of it, of a point game plan physically meaning. The on thumbnail the quick faces that may need to be shown on that so you know what the side poses or the key poses because if something's going really fast you know you know that you can only sell so many ideas again it's a simplification process. When in doubt go simple when in doubt go simple when in doubt, don't try to be original I think sometimes people. I think the word originality is was a little bit overrated. Can we look at a capsule everything's so original and then you, you find out he has like a billion African mass and copy. That was all African art I mean some of the exactly like the mass that he had in his room I'm like, he didn't invent that wasn't some bad bad Cubism that he has sculpted or some poor African guy who did it 800 years ago. And I think we all appropriate from other people. And so don't be afraid to go, you know, this works. If the deadlines tight I will use this. And, and, more of that cuz I think when your work is done with truth and as personal as you can be. It will be yours, it will be your Will you couldn't be unoriginal even if you try it I think, I think those Oh, I'm paraphrasing Robert Henry there was my biggest inspiration as an art teacher.
Being very very prepared and being realistic.
I remember you asked me that question about over animating I think a lot of animators. They want to do too many things. So there's no way they can fit that in that deadline. Yeah, sometimes the deadlines are ridiculous. and it happens more and more in television, and sometimes special affairs. But I believe the essence of your shot, and you have a good plan. You don't stay late I remember when I was working at Blue Sky which I think blue sky had some of the most talented and fastest brilliant animators ever worked with so blessed to know that people there many who have great friends and remained great friends.
They were so fast.
And I think it's because they were just so prepared, they knew what they wanted. And it just did it, and doesn't mean the shots were perfect No, it just meant you hit the right beats in some time limit lines are really tight that's how you focus on it, you'll, you know, a TV, no matter what was complained he doesn't know enough time and I always when I remember when I was directing and there was another show that the company was doing TV we're on TV where I said, well, you on your show, you know I just I ran the whole animation team. The company I told a while on your show up it's TV and the deadlines are tight. And you focus on the layout side of it, you focus on the major storytelling pieces don't don't worry about the finessing the slide so it's super smooth and the weights perfect, you're reading the major houses you're in the major parties telling the story and you give it energy and feeling, and that's it you're out. you go in and you're out because you. No one would expect more anyone was expecting more was. That's true. You can't expect someone to to pay them a castle in 10 seconds you
Unknown Speaker 1:06:28
just did doesn't work.
James Chiang 1:06:30
This is why when I hear sometimes business personal or producer make that kind of comments you know I want hard network I work as hard although you just, you gave them a deadline and budget that. No, that's there's no chance of that, then you're that's very cool not only Unfair Terms cruel and realistic ethics sometimes it's not done through malevolent mindset, but they don't understand the process. I think a lot of people think that will computer animation and swear I feel sorry for computer animators, I was one.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:03
Everyone thinks it's done by computer.
James Chiang 1:07:06
Right. And the average person the average layperson thinks it's done by computer that the average person still thinks that the sound comes after we had made, I mean, we only think that right because that's what we do. So I think that's the way it just being very prepared, and being realistic with yourself and your superiors about what can be done in the shot in that time, and sure you pick up speed but you, you let go of the, you know, you let go of the minor things that people say don't mind no major and the minor things, you know, let the little things slide, get the main things right and if you have time, you can tweak some of them. And yes of course you will get the big feature stuff and Disney or whatever they have bigger budgets like Pixar, of course they can have all the time I remember a Pixar animator telling me that all the time to tweak the shot after it was already approved I'm like, holy cow. You lucky son of a gun. And I sometimes go Why isn't it better to be amazing. And then time does allow a really great work. But sometimes time can make it worse work.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 1:08:11
Yes, true. Right. Yeah. And what can you suggest for animators who feel like they might be plateauing.
James Chiang 1:08:19
I think the first thing is they need a break. They need a real break from the entire process of being an animator this whole, you know, school industry is like I said it's so it's so much. And it consumes your life. I remember when I was an animator full time. You know, I felt sorry for the husbands and wives of animators or girlfriends and children. Children kids, it gets cool right now that works I think so how cool is that you know people are saying those kind of things and your spouse's and girlfriends and boyfriends are bored of it all, they talk about is animation is shop talk all the time. And you have to go okay let's get away from that. Get away from that completely. Again, get into something physical, I think being around nature is amazing. To to refresh yourself, and then ask yourself some serious questions, you know, what are we doing now half the world is this place you're at. still the same destination that you were hoping to be before you came into this career, and they ask yourself some tough questions. Do you want to still stay at this particular position. Job career company industry, whatever, some of those questions are scary. And everyone faces them when they've been in the industry for a while.
And sometimes you just need a refresher.
Other times you go, you know what I'm done animating full time I'd like to eat now. Maybe I'll go to a different company, or maybe I want to move into director store and I still want to move in the story I have great friends of mine who moved into concept. They want to go back to more of the tangible drawing and painting side of it, and they're excellent animators there's guys that have lost interest and say, you know, this is a weird formula but
similar stories that get shown even in the big
Unknown Speaker 1:10:09
films, and they
James Chiang 1:10:10
move into games where there may be some different things being done and they work with a new new technology. So I think that's what you have to do you have to take a break to realize you're not just crazy. Just to gain some sanity because you can make serious decisions, and you can seriously look at your life without, without some peace in space. I mean I know animators we deal with time and space all the time but here's the irony we don't give ourselves time and space. And I always find that really funny. It's almost ironical, there are these animators they're gods of their universe that they create but they don't control time and space in their own lives. And I think we have to regain that recapture that and go hey you know what my life is my own. I'm going to take a break now I'm going to rethink about things and reassess where I want to do what I'm going to do, how I'm going to do it. If it's something different, how do I transition.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:03
And
James Chiang 1:11:04
that's exciting because every being an artist is really a journey I think. Yeah.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 1:11:11
I'm running low on
the greatest piece of advice anybody ever gave you and who is it from.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:25
Oh my gosh,
James Chiang 1:11:29
I guess. Wow, that's a that's a tough one, I, I,
greatest piece of advice. I should have saw this one coming
up I guess I had mentioned a little bit what Wayne giving me that
idea of keeping things really clear, that was great from him in this industry. I, when I think about great piece of it, probably not from a person that's living today. More from what I read. And they're the words of Henry David Thoreau. My favorite philosopher. And I will quote Javea on my screen. Just to remind me, and I'll quote it and he says, If a man does not keep pace with his companions. Perhaps it is because he fears a different, he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured are far away. And I think there can be no greater statement of choosing yourself than that. And not going with the crowd. If that music is not what you want to hear, you know, and that was a big thing it was a hard thing for me to do as I joke around like I'm born the year the dog. So I guess I'm just like a canine right and dogs like to be told what to do, poops, and illusion.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:46
Yeah. Okay. And,
James Chiang 1:12:50
you know, dogs like to be told what to do. They're healthier when they're told what to do. And it's tempting even for myself and a lot of us I'm not saying we're lemmings but it's easier to not be independent, it's easier to, to have someone make the decisions for you. It's easier to follow the leader of the pack leader and when you are a leader you have that responsibility as we talked about, but ultimately we are intelligent independent individuals, each one of us, none of us are identical, there is no average person. Right. That's probably those words by Thoreau remind me to be myself. Each and every day. And I think, you know, feel like animation. It's so easy to just follow the crowd,
both in terms of tastes and action and thinking
Unknown Speaker 1:13:40
that we remember you know you know your Sandra and James,
James Chiang 1:13:44
everyone else's everyone else they're their own people.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:47
And I think that's what makes art great
James Chiang 1:13:49
is when your work is deeply personal. And I also think that's what makes life great when you try to live true to who you are, and we're, you know, do aware of the who you are and want to be. And if you can't do that as an artist, it doesn't set a good example for people who are not isn't that true. If the virus is too scared to wear that strange velvet scarf. What average person has the courage to be different, because we kind of set the boundaries of where we can, as a human species what we can do and that's why it was so exciting we're always pushing boundaries, mostly scientists do these real scientists I mean there's a lot more technology now that science being pushed, but I I miss science being pushed I miss an art I think needs to continue to be quick, even in our field as commercial as animation I still think people can
find that so that's so the roles like guy,
as well as Robert Henry I mean he kind of says the same thing, you know,
and he always and I'll paraphrase here is always says, you know, you got to be interested in our for,
you know, because it's a way of living rather than a way of making a living, you know, I think that's that's important to be to remember, at least that's what that's what kind of matters to me I always think of these two guys and it reminds me to be true to myself,
hard thing to do but yeah
well worth investing in.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:13
Right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah,
Sandra Ni Chonaola 1:15:17
that's lovely James really nice. You're welcome. Yeah. Oh no,
Unknown Speaker 1:15:22
crazy but
Unknown Speaker 1:15:25
you know when really long as I always talk to you like.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:29
These are big questions you throw these monster questions at me.
Sandra Ni Chonaola 1:15:33
Anything I talk about even if it's something as simple as timing and spacing you always see something really profound and help me look at it in any way so I love chatting with you. Thank you.
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