https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/animation-dir-dean-deblois
Transcript:
James Deakins 0:09
Welcome to the team Deakins podcast. This podcast is a dialogue between Roger and James Deakins joined by Matt Wyman starting from a submitted question, and ending. Who knows where. We're also joined by guests on occasion. We're connecting through zoom so bear that in mind when you hear the audio. If you'd like to submit a question, please do so by emailing pod pod at Roger Deakins calm. Today's episode is animation part three. We started with an episode where Roger and I discussed our involvement in animated projects. We then had a great conversation with the heads of layout and lighting on our current project. And today we have a special treat. Joining us is an animation director with whom we've worked three times. He's a three time Oscar nominee, a brilliant writer as well as our director and has also directed live action, you'll know him best by the movies Lilo and Stitch, and the three How to Train Your Dragon movies. We're very pleased to welcome Dean to block today.
Dean DeBlois 1:18
Thank you very much, proud to be here very honored,
James Deakins 1:21
Dean we have so much to talk about. But I'd like to start with a little bit about your history, how did you get into animation. Did you know as a lad you wanted to work in animation.
Dean DeBlois 1:32
I could always draw, and I was fascinated by comic books and that's really where I learned to draw. I love the storytelling I love the world building, and I love the dynamic compositions that was really exciting to me so the idea of creating my own story and characters, and then being able to lay them out in in comic book form was always really appealing to me I used to make my own comic books and even got to meet a few of my heroes at a local comic conventions, but when it came time to pursuing a career I didn't know how to connect those dots. Marvel and DC in Manhattan and me and Elmer kaback it just didn't seem viable. So I looked around and the closest thing I could find was an animation program being taught a summer school at Sheridan College just outside of Toronto. And I decided to give it a shot and what I found out was, it was everything that I loved about comic books brought to life for a world audience. And so, I had an aptitude for it and, and I threw myself into it and got hired out of school to go work for Don Bluth and Ireland, he's a, an ex Disney vet to head started his own studio, along with the help of Steven Spielberg and they made films like an American tale Land Before Time. All Dogs Go to have in the secret of nim was their first feature film, and it's where I went to kind of cut my teeth and work with some very talented people that all prepared me to get hired at the Disney Studios.
James Deakins 3:02
So did you start working by drawing. Was that your first job, drawing things. Yes,
Dean DeBlois 3:08
yes I was a background designer. They called layout, and that was, that was my job I would design up the backgrounds for for the characters to be placed against that would be later painted by background artists background painters, and it was. It was a great way to, to not only refine my drawing ability but to learn about further learn about composition and directing the eye and where to place characters in a frame. Follow them through camera movement. Later I started doing character designs and finally before I left the Don Bluth studio I became his storyboard assistant. And so that was, that's really where it all came together for me because I felt like I was, I was able to direct my own little mini parts of the film. And when I joined the Walt Disney Studios that's what I, that's what I wanted to be part of and I found myself in the story department.
James Deakins 4:00
So you find this story department has the best of both because it's the story because obviously as a writer you like stories. And it's also the drawing and creating the environments. Yeah, what I quickly realized
Dean DeBlois 4:13
especially at the download studio and it continued throughout my early career was that the, the writers that they found themselves working with were not very, we're not very good. So, it always felt like the stories were lacking. And it made me very curious about story I'd never studied writing, but I threw myself into that as well and then I went to go take a Robert McKee weekend workshop in London, that opened my eyes and started reading every book I could find on it and started refining my own stories and I realized that that was really where the dearth was in animation. So if I could be a storyboard artist that gave me the chance, the opportunity to really visualize a lot of the storytelling instincts that I had, but at the same time, just really work on character and story arcs and as much as I could use that off time to begin to write my own material.
James Deakins 5:08
And did you find that by writing Lilo and Stitch that gave you the sort of tool to be able to say to them well yeah you can have
Dean DeBlois 5:18
this, if I can direct it. Chris Sanders and I were partnering together on Lilo and Stitch to direct it, but they kept telling us that they were going to hire real writers at some point. We were largely left alone because that film was made in Florida. By the time that they realized how far the film had gone, and how singular, its voice was they dropped the idea of bringing a professional into the mix and we became screenwriters as a result of it.
James Deakins 5:46
That's great. That's great. And then right after Lilo and Stitch What did you do.
Dean DeBlois 5:51
I had a hopper of ideas about 20 ideas that I had been working on. And most of them were live action in my mind. So I thought it was a good opportunity to see whether or not anyone in the town would be interested in these ideas so I put together pitch packages for a few of them got an agent and went around and pitched, and I sold three of them. So for eight years, I worked on multiple drafts, and each project. Unfortunately fell to the same demise which was there was a change in presidency at both the Walt Disney Studios and then at Universal Studios so the president who had bought my projects was ousted replaced by somebody who wanted to clear the slate and follow their sensibilities. And so,
James Deakins 6:39
Hollywood Story.
Dean DeBlois 6:41
It was, it was eight years I wouldn't say it was wasted but I learned I learned a lot. I mean, one film had a start date. We had our cinematographer and production designer and art director and we were going after our cast we had locations set in, and we were going to be shooting and in Ireland on location on the west coast and Dingle and then the Ardmore studios, just outside of Dublin. I mean, it was, had an approved budget, we were, we were so close, and then it all, it all kind of fell apart with, with the departure of Nina Jacobson, Dean were you also attached to direct those. Yes, I was. I was writing to direct them, and that was going to be my directorial debut in live action, but after after eight floundering years, I, I got kind of a rescue call from my old cohort. Chris Sanders, the guy that I hadn't written and directed Lilo and Stitch with. And he said, Listen, I'm over at DreamWorks and they've thrown me this project called How To Train Your Dragon. It's two years into its production, and it has a fixed release date, 15 months from now, but they need a page one reconceived would you jump onto it with me. So we, I found myself that Monday morning, sitting in a conference table with Jeffrey Katzenberg telling us what he wanted and, and how their various attempts to faithfully adapt the book upon which it was based was was leading nowhere so yeah we were given three mandates he said I want to father and son story, and a big David and Goliath ending, and Harry Potter tone.
James Deakins 8:16
And that was it. But it's interesting because that material, had a certain amount of darkness to it. I mean, the kid loses his leg. That's not good. And his father. So, did you have to struggle because I find a lot of times with animation because it started out as cartoons for children, they do have this thing of let's not upset our audience. But the thing about How To Train Your Dragon was because it did go into different areas and story and I think it was really wonderful but did you have to struggle to get to keep those elements. It was always
Dean DeBlois 8:53
a struggle but that was, that was our sensibility, and we, I think, I always come to projects, even if they're animated with a live action sensibility that's the way I write the screenplay. Yeah, it, it doesn't interest me to play it light, all of the time, and of course hiccup losing his leg or losing his father, a lot of the, the grittier story elements of the films are not in the books, and that was something we brought to the mix, but it was something we wanted to create a world that had consequences to it. And that was a large part of why we approached yourself and Roger to come into the mix.
James Deakins 9:30
Do you think it's in animation is that an advantage to be to write the script as well as directed. And is that the way it normally is that the people who are directing or writing.
Dean DeBlois 9:42
I don't know if it's normally That way I know that there are some writer directors like Brad Bird and a few others, I, I don't see any other way, to be honest because as a storyboard artist I would tend to set aside the script pages I was given and reinvent them try to make them better. Yeah, but for me, because I don't have as much time to storyboard writing is my means of visualizing the ideas, so that I can communicate them to other people. If I'm not writing it if I'm simply reinterpreting somebody else's screenplay, then I feel less invested in it I have less confidence and I feel an overall lack of authorship
over the material,
Roger Deakins 10:25
what's the kind of difference working on on How To Train Your Dragon series, then, then what you weren't going to do live action wise the film you were going to do an island. Is that a big change big shift for you.
Dean DeBlois 10:38
It wasn't, I think the film that I was going to make an Ireland was intended to be a broad audience family film. It was a ghost story set during the Great Famine, so it has dark elements to it but ultimately it's a very wish fulfilling story of a young lad who has escaped from a workhouse and impersonates everything that the people of the towns are terrified of the witches banshees fairy folk, but into his life comes an actual ghost from, from a famine ship that had wrecked upon the shores, and she's in this desperate bind between the world of the living and the world of the dead, trying to find your father and having nowhere to turn. And so she turns to the charlatan who claims to know everything about anything other worldly, and it becomes this sort of African Queen like contentious relationship where he attempts to get her to the other side of she'll scratch his back and help him make a few big robberies and in the process he falls in love with it, and it becomes a story of first loss. First Love and first loss. He jeopardizes her opportunity to move on to the hereafter. Out of need to keep her close and it becomes a transform a transformational story that changes his world forever. It's about a ghost teaching a living a living legend how to, How to truly live.
James Deakins 12:01
This sounds good. I want to see this one
Roger Deakins 12:05
right now would you would you ever consider doing that as an animated film, or would you ever consider going back to try and get it together as live action.
Dean DeBlois 12:15
I think with what we accomplished on the dragon films together, it, it's so straddles the line between live action and animation in terms of its sensibility and look, yeah, I absolutely do think it could be done in animation. It's just unfortunately it's one of those projects that has held up with a huge price tag against it.
Roger Deakins 12:35
So because development money's already been put into it. Yes. Yeah, it comes with a lead, lead way around it does, it does oh boy oh boy. Those yeah you know there's trouble there's some wonderful projects out there but they come with like five or 10 or $15 million kind of dead weight. Never get them together. I mean think about How To Train Your Dragon series is it did seem to kind of reach a wider audience than most animated films, I mean there's some animated films like Waltz with Bashir that's only going to have an adult audience but that's a specific thing. Most of the American Hollywood movies are really geared towards, you know, young kids really aren't they are teenagers at the most, but they're How to Train Your Dragon series seem to have a much wider audience Do you think that's a possibility with animation to come.
Dean DeBlois 13:32
I do think it's a possibility because those that I think recently the films that pander to just a very young audience don't seem to do as well, and it's those those films like, like most of the Pixar films, try to reach for something that's a bit more in terms of its themes, it, it not only entertains, the young audience but it's, it's speaking to something much more mature on screen simultaneously. And that becomes. I think the greater aspiration throughout the industry. It does seem right. It does seem to reward the studios for taking a few risks and trying to do so right that's different and truly universal something truly speaking to the older demographic as well.
James Deakins 14:16
And it's also kind of fun because with the tools of animation, you can go to places sometimes that you can't. and and
Dean DeBlois 14:24
live action. Yeah, I mean we, I think we've realized by the end of. How to Train Your Dragon three that were there was the all of the restrictions that had previously held us back or caused us to rethink our ambition, were lifted and and the technology is advanced in such a way that. If you can dream it up and communicate it to a crew it's, it is plausible. It may be expensive may require a lot of time but we no longer have to resort to to matte paintings and scaling back the numbers of characters on screen or, or just dialing back. The scope and ambition, because it can be done, each one of those departments have have excelled, and something like the hidden world as a space that even in Dragon two would have had to have been matte paintings and we've had, we would have had to restrict our, our camera paths and restrict the numbers of dragons that were filling the space, but yeah,
Roger Deakins 15:25
it was amazing. The difference between that how the first one on the third one, the difference and the technology and as you say they ambition, you think, wow, I mean what what could be done that was amazing change, I suppose it was a few years.
James Deakins 15:41
So also to that with with the change of technology, you have to be careful because yes you can see every detail and every leaf in the forest, but you wouldn't, if you were shooting that live action. so it kind of draws you out of it so you have to be careful just because you can do all these things, maybe you shouldn't.
Dean DeBlois 16:01
I think that's the greatest lesson that that Roger imparted upon the free naysayer. Not so much naysayer but he would often question whether it was in the design of the shots, and their movement. He would often say okay, you know that's it's nice it's a bit showy but whose point of view, are you following and how is it advancing the story. And it was always a reminder even with the lighting. Sure you can see into every shadow and see every detail but do you want to, and. And it's I what I took away from it was just the, the discipline of restraint. We do have the ability to show and do anything in animation but it, it actually works against us, because it takes the audience out or it stops them from believing in the world that we're trying to conjure, and then, and so I think by imparting some, some restrictions some real world sensibilities. It actually makes the, the characters in the world feel real.
Roger Deakins 17:04
Yeah, I mean, I think, i mean i bring that from live action could you see so many live action films, because the technology is so amazing. You can do anything with a camera like you can do a film in one take. Hahaha. No, you don't necessarily want to do that on every film, you know it's it's right in it's in certain circumstances that we were talking to a young guy. Yesterday, you know, remember from drills. And we were talking about how long croods, so much of that was almost like cinema verite a sort of, you know, documentary kind of long takes moving cameras observational almost in a sense, which is like the antithesis of some dragon really you know you're, you're thinking of things much more in compose shots and letting things play in frames at times you know and you're varying, a lot, you know, and it's just a could you can do it doesn't mean to say you should.
Dean DeBlois 18:02
I think young duck did it to, to an extreme, but we also tried in Dragon to suggest that there was an operator behind the camera. Yeah, little pumps and overshoots and jostles, the camera and helped to remove the, the kind of glassy perfection of computer camera moves. And yes,
Roger Deakins 18:25
there is a certain language isn't that you know that then the camera that's the thing so if you like to introduce that kind of language from live action into animation. It's strange you do get a sense of heightened reality. Yeah.
James Deakins 18:40
And since you did three a trilogy of How to Train Your Dragon and since, as we have certainly found out on our other episodes how long these projects are. Was it a big challenge because you did one and then it was gonna be years later when two came out and you have to maintain that same feeling. How did you deal with that.
Dean DeBlois 19:04
Well it was, it was twofold I really loved the crew and I loved the cast and the idea of continuing to work with them was exciting to me, but I also recognized how much of a time investment, it was going to be. I briefly looked around after How to Train Your Dragon the first film to see what live action opportunities might be sitting out there and they weren't great. So I thought well maybe if I continue with Dragon two and three and direct those solo, I might have, you know, a more significant body of work and maybe more clout, and relevance to get live action projects off the ground when I was finished, but I knew it would be a decade commitment at that point,
James Deakins 19:48
you keep talking about live action and seeing that you come from an animated background and come from comics. What are the differences that you see in your role as a director, and is it something that would scare you when you think there'd be a learning curve and say wow you know, I really want to do this live action thing but there's going to be a ramp up time between what I've known and done in animation and may have to get used to, in a live action film.
Dean DeBlois 20:13
I think that's exactly why I'm excited by it because I'm fearful of it. I love to be thrown in the deep end and I love to learn new things. And there's just something about the idea of live action film working with actors performances working with the, the opportunities presented on the day by the sets and the ideas that would be coming from the crew and the immediacy of it is, is really appealing to me. And I know a lot of people that stand around on live action sense that sets kind of talk about the drudgery of of everything being set up and taken down but it's nothing compared to yours invested the glacial pace of animation. And lastly, I think it's just there is the reach of the audience is promises, more in terms of my sensibilities with a live action film than often animated movies do like Like it or not, and though it's changing animated films are always relegated to the kiddie table there was dismissed as children's entertainment, out of the gate. And it's an itch I've been wanting to scratch for a while, I think, but it's all dependent on the material and like I said most of my stories, lend themselves more toward live action than they do animation.
James Deakins 21:32
I also I've heard stories of animated directors going into live action and on their first feature shooting a scene and not really liking it and going, oh well we'll just redo this, because you can. No, you don't have that, today's the day and that's it. And having to deal with that, which does bring a lot of pressure on the set but also a lot of adrenaline and excitement of, this is what it's going to be
Roger Deakins 22:01
on me is what I love about live action, I mean you know it's really interesting working on animation but the timescale I couldn't, I couldn't do. I couldn't do it full time as a career I couldn't, I love the live action thing. I mean, it really is scary sometimes, you know, you've got a half an hour the lights going and you've got to get a long, complicated taken house. You know you're behind schedule and I just love it.
James Deakins 22:25
It's kind of interesting. It's kind of like the difference between prep and actually shooting cousin prep, as you get towards the end of the prep it. It's just will drive you crazy because you keep going over the same thing over and over well what if this happens, what if that happens, what, what do we do then and you're just repeating and repeating, because you have the time, done when you're shooting, you're just doing. And so, yeah, we could have done it this way but we didn't. So this is
Roger Deakins 22:53
just to be on the set and then actually have the confidence to change your mind, and whether that is the director or myself as the cameraman say, I mean I've a couple of times. A couple of times out of 60 years turns to the director and said, I've got to start again, you know, I want to start again because I can do this much better but I can do it within schedule, you know, that I kind of love that, I love that sort of making those choices.
Dean DeBlois 23:18
Yeah, it's amazing and there's an, there is a decisive immediacy to all of it and like it or not, you have to live with it and yeah I mean I've had little experiences I've shot music videos and I've done some concert documentary work and, and there is that sense of immediacy as well but there's also the great thrill of getting your footage back and just seeing what you accomplished and is. Yeah, I love that immediacy animation, you have to wait you know you have to wait for a year and a half before you see a finished print of anything. And it's not to put it down I love it as an art form and I think it's really beautiful and timeless. And I would never turn my back on it. I just want to expand the toolbox.
James Deakins 24:02
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's something about having limitations that creates, I don't know that you find a solution that you didn't think you had, you wouldn't if you had no limitations, you would have gone down the easy route perhaps but with limitations. You have to find that solution and the solution is usually even better than you thought. So, if that makes any sense. It does.
Dean DeBlois 24:29
Does and there's an energy there's an energy to that collective group, everybody's working within their discipline, but they're all part of the whole and they're all contributing ideas and
Roger Deakins 24:38
it's no focused on that moment, yes yeah they're all focused on capturing that one special moment on that one short piece of film, because it's now digital but same business Same, same idea that you're focusing on this one little performance take creation of a moment. Yeah.
James Deakins 24:57
Do you think that an animation director going into live action actually has an advantage when it comes to visual effects, because you've spent so much time with computer graphics and seeing what happens if you push it too far too little that you might come into it with a little more experience in that area.
Dean DeBlois 25:18
I think in that area. Yes, there's a familiarity with, with the craft of creating what isn't there, and knowing the limitations of what you can create is is also an advantage I think some directors that are not as familiar with digital creation is, they might come into a thinking or expecting more than can actually be accomplished or not recognize the cost and and time and labor that will go into creating that thing. But on the other side, it does you know just based on the history of animation directors moving into live action they also come in with a sense of of ease that they can always go back and rework a moment, you know, take it back to storyboard and reconceived it as we often do an animation. Yeah, well into production and and so that that sense of preparedness of having a really solid script and a really solid plan in terms of storyboards and shot lists and really walking through the location with the location scout and knowing what is feasible and how long it will take to shoot it. I'm aware that I have to be super prepared on that level. Because it is. It's just so much more malleable in animation.
James Deakins 26:33
Yeah, and that's actually a good thing because I think oftentimes a lot of productions don't have that kind of prep is there all different kinds of productions in some sort of make it up on the day but I always like it when they have addressed these things ahead of time and we have this game plan, even though it might change.
Roger Deakins 26:54
You need a plan, you can always throw it away but you. If you haven't got a plan then sometimes you can really come unstuck.
Dean DeBlois 27:01
Yeah, I think that's a that's a general generally for me in my career, it's always been the way two approaches, walk into a room with a solid idea. One that you've really considered, and then be open to it. It's embellishment be open to new ideas that might take it in a direction that's less cliche, a little more surprising. Something that that you might not have considered but it's so much better. I think that same attitude should carry forward onto a live action set as well. A lot of people who've been doing this for a long time, who might have some really great ideas on how to make something better. But I wouldn't walk onto a set. And just turn to Roger or anyone else to say okay so what do we do, I would, I would, I would have to feel somewhat prepared, whether it's through storyboards or just having really thought through the pages that we're planning to shoot.
Roger Deakins 27:55
Yeah, because even if that's just a talking point that's the thing that's that that that's what you want. I mean it's not, I don't feel, I mean I always come on set with an idea but I'm not necessarily, I'm not attached to it in any sense, it's just as a talking point with a director and I'm like come on the certain directors got a different idea and I, and then we might find a third idea that is not what either of us expected or actor might come up with something or you look at the set and go, Oh, well this is obvious we do this you know which is very much how we work with Danny actually isn't it.
James Deakins 28:31
Yeah, and I do think that the value of prepping everything is to not only figure out how you're going to shoot it or what locations but also to really know the scenes and to know this scene is important because it's the first time we realized that somebody blah blah blah. And so, because you've got that in your mind if you change things on the day in the back of your mind you're remembering, but what we need to convey in the scene, because this is why it's important is the first time we see whatever. So I think the more that you know the purpose of each scene, the more you can be more flexible on the day because you're not gonna lose the point of the scene because on the day, there's so much pressure, and there's so much going on that sometimes you're just trying to get it in the can. And it's important to remember why that scene is there to begin with. And as a writer, you really know that because you put it there.
Roger Deakins 29:33
So many times I think on, on, on, on a live action set you might you might be doing a scene with like 1000 extras that's I mean that's being extreme, but actually the scene is about one character standing there and those people are just background to what is happening in his head. And there's such a danger of going on a set as like, I've got all these extras I've got this great big set I've got all said such a day let's get 20 cameras. They're really what you need is a close up of that character, with all those people moving in the background but they're not really important. You know what I mean. And, and I think the fact that you write and direct you know that's what the crucial element is that scene what you've written. And that's, that's what I think in prep anyway that this is you've got a sense of the crucial part of the, the moment, because, because just the stress of doing live action and that sort of production and producers kind of pressure on the day and filming everything that I spent the money on can take you away from actually what's important in the scene.
Dean DeBlois 30:43
I think that's what's so important about having a collaborator like yourself on the production, because I get as dazzled by the extras and the toys, as anyone else I could, I could be easily persuaded to indulge and and oftentimes we have people above us who want certain things I remember very clearly on How To Train Your Dragon, the first film. It had been the tradition to light, everything in such a way that you saw every detail every prop that had been had been exhaustively designed the cost money that was used to dress the set needed to be lit with with candy colors and gloss and then here comes Roger who would cast the entire remember remember hiccups workshop. Let's just use, let's just use the candlelight as practical lights within the shot and let, let it fall off into black and not not a dark black
James Deakins 31:48
action designer and the animators weren't so happy.
Dean DeBlois 31:51
We were well no we were all nervous because we had heard so many times from from Jeffrey Katzenberg that you know if he was paying for it. He wanted to see it. So we made sure to have Roger in the room, the first time that we debuted lighting of that particular scene. Right. He sat and strategically sat right beside Jeffrey and it was, it was great because it really opened the door for something that we hadn't done, and really no one had done at that point because that was prior to you, collaborating with Gore Verbinski on Rango. So there was really no, yes. Aside from, aside from that first act of Wally, and I know that quite a bit of influence on that from the workshops you did up at Pixar. I hadn't seen anything in animation CG animation that had that kind of grit, or sense of naturalism to it. It really gave it emotional heft, and it was very different for our studio. And it became a defining look for the trilogy. But I wouldn't have had the guts to go there, honestly. Had you not been there.
Roger Deakins 33:04
We that is the fun of it though, isn't it, but the fun of it it's also the scary part like we were saying about live action you make that decision on the set, you know, I mean the number of times when I shoot and film and center direct okay. You mind if I play this in silhouette. You know what I mean. But what's the silhouette and then, you know, the director doesn't really see what you mean by silhouette until they watch the dailies
James Deakins 33:29
film Yeah,
Roger Deakins 33:31
but I mean that's that's that's the joy of it, you know, is to
James Deakins 33:35
push it a little bit
Roger Deakins 33:36
push it stretch it use all the possibilities. Yeah,
Dean DeBlois 33:39
I don't know, I mean maybe it might be interesting for your listeners to know why we asked Roger to come in for that pitch in the first place. And it's because Chris Andrews and I have come from a hand drawn animation background. And in that process. There is always a step before you go into production, where you create a workbook drawing, which is really a single frame for every shot of the movie that shows where the light and shadow and composition is going to play out just a, you know, a graphite pencil drawing, but everybody has a sense of okay this is what the background, the painted background is going to have to do in terms of lighting shadows so it's going to affect the colors of the characters and their position within the frame, even through the blocking of the shot in CG animation we quickly realized they don't have that step. And so early on before animation begins coming out of storyboards they create virtual shots, and they they choose lenses. They create camera movement, and they lock off the compositions months away from the very first lighting test. So, we were both scratching our heads wondering how could you walk off the top position without knowing where the light and shadow is going to fall, it seemed really strange to us but that was just the process. And we were learning very quickly but we thought, maybe it might be best to bring in somebody who has some experience and interest in this medium. Someone that we all respect, and who's whose lightning, you know, speaks for himself, and maybe do some talks with us in the vein of what Roger had done with Wally. And so we invited Roger into the mix, and we pitched the movie, and to our great delight he he wanted to be part of the whole production, as well as you James and so it was a it was a gift we didn't see coming because we thought we might get a couple of days of workshops out of it. And then we ended up getting your your your. He couldn't get rid of us. But it transformed the movie from start to finish it wasn't just. It wasn't just represented in the first act like in Wally is something went from the first frame to the last, and what it really did was marry those two departments that previously hadn't communicated a whole lot from the, the camera department to the lighting department, and it became an overall discussion with, with the production designer and our visual effects supervisor, so it was a it transformed the way that DreamWorks was producing their films, because we were new to CG animation it's just the way that we were asked to do it but yeah, it was great because we had Roger. In the beginning, helping to select images that were inspiring in terms of mood and atmosphere color building boards that would surround an entire conference room to advising on storyboards and the previous shots. The actual lopped off compositions lens choices, and then all the way through to the end with the final lighting in the DI.
James Deakins 36:42
It was actually really great for us to be in the entire process, and really involved in the entire process because if you're going to do it.
Unknown Speaker 36:53
What's the point. Oh, that's what we said,
Roger Deakins 36:56
we're gonna do it let's do it, you know.
Yeah, we've done, done those short times on on Hollywood Pixar, I mean frankly we would have done more on Molly. But at that time we were off doing a live action shoot, so we only worked on the opening sequences,
James Deakins 37:14
and it will also was the very first time of this collaboration between animation and a live action person so everybody was trying to figure out how it would work because they were used to going off on their own and working on a scene and not necessarily bringing people in so it was a real learning experience I think yes and then for the workflow,
Roger Deakins 37:35
buddy, getting the remote, you know the access yeah work on it remotely. Yeah, yeah be away and come back and forth. Yeah.
Dean DeBlois 37:42
And that was all thanks to James actually
what James You were great about maximizing Rodgers input in the movie. You know, not just dropping in every now and then but actually making sure that he was constantly abreast of anything that was developing and changing and so we had a mobile system set up for you while you were working on Skyfall or their movie, you could check on our progress as well, be it storyboards or shots that were coming in fully lit. And it's I think a great testament to your dedication to make it to make it work even when you would schedule days to be there live and in person to make sure the days were full of meetings for yourself and Roger to attend because it worked too well
James Deakins 38:30
because they really jammed him in.
Dean DeBlois 38:33
But I don't think anyone would have had you not said listen we're here, you know, we've said yes we're part of it so make make the most of it.
James Deakins 38:44
It was really fun to because for me I had to really get to know the technical process, which was so mind boggling to me the way, coming from live action the way it worked, and to understand the steps, each scenes went through and to make sure that we were in part of all of them. So it was fun.
Roger Deakins 39:05
You'll make me feel quite nostalgic for that time of DreamWorks. We really enjoyed it. I mean it was, it really was a dream and it was great,
James Deakins 39:14
and also preserved the launch
Roger Deakins 39:16
of a sale. But the moment and the development of anime computer animation, you know the development of the technology and then having people like you kind of China stretch it with the kind of films who are making I think it was a moment, you look back at that as a moment in film history that it won't be like can't be like that again because you know the technology now has moved on, you've got the Lion King or whatever you want but
James Deakins 39:42
I do hope that actually animation goes forward and pushing the envelope and doing things like line drawings versus something really visual and fun and tells the story so it needs a good story, and a strong. Not, not necessarily a child's visual, it would be really fun.
Roger Deakins 40:05
But what do you see how do you see it. I mean, animation and live action and CG, how do you see film, you know, how do you see see film developing over the next 10 years or so.
Yeah, question.
Dean DeBlois 40:22
Question. I will say that I was, I was quite inspired by the work that was done on spider man into the spider verse, because they, they took CG animation where it stood and applied it to a very graphic comic book sensibility. In yeah in a really dimensional interesting way. And I thought that was very brave, they really took a risk and they were rewarded for it. So I, I would say the challenge. The challenge is out there it's been met, at least once or twice, and knowing that we can do anything. We should really push ourselves. Steven Spielberg gave a talk over DreamWorks recently and he was saying I would love to see DreamWorks take on something with a darker, more mature creepier tone to it. And that's, that's something I've been wanting to do forever. But it's always been, it's always been shied away from because it might be too niche or audiences might reject it and these films are so expensive that they they try to hedge their bets by making,
James Deakins 41:24
and then kind of aiming for the young audience because they figure oh well it's animation so we'll get them in so anything that might frighten them, they're not sure they'll get the adults and Exactly,
Dean DeBlois 41:36
exactly. They don't know that they've got the adults and they may cause parents to avoid taking their children to the films, but I grew up on some of those, those creepy Disney films of the times like the. The Watcher in the woods or escaped to Witch Mountain and I loved them, you know I always loved a sense of peril and they weren't gratuitous and violent or bloody or terrifying but they had they had an atmosphere to them that was always really, really appealing to me, and definitely helped shape my, my ambitions for telling stories, so I would, I would love to do that. And I think there's room to, as long as it doesn't, as long as it's not so off putting that the families will avoid it, because there's, there can be there can be fun spooky as well.
James Deakins 42:24
Yeah. And it seems like it might be the smaller companies that would do that because their companies have so much invested, and a big payback from the box office.
Roger Deakins 42:35
Oh, that's a point do you think, I mean you think small animations getting cheaper and cheaper right so i mean other big companies like DreamWorks and Pixar are they going to get more competition from smaller kind of companies that make animated films for half the money and
Dean DeBlois 42:52
so far it's not the case, because there is a there's a quality drop and, more importantly, they don't have the muscle of just distribution behind them. You need that huge marketing machine and financial commitment of a big studio back in your movie to really reach with the audiences that, that, that Pixar and Disney and DreamWorks.
James Deakins 43:14
Also, a lot of the income too is on the toy sales Right. I mean, sometimes you're designing a character so it's a good
Dean DeBlois 43:22
doll. Later, in some cases, yeah, they actually have been to a few presentations from people who are specialists in this field and they they talk about films that are toy attic, you know whether they, whether they have sounds bad or whether they have kind of a wish fulfilling quality to it, that they can see children wanting to play out with action figures and toys, some dope, and that's okay and they just don't invest the money on that end, don't expect any kind of any kind of massive windfall of money from the consumer products dragon was one that they considered to be quite toy high tech and I think it has made a lot of money for the studio with its with its toys and sets and dolls and everything else.
James Deakins 44:08
Yeah. Remember, POV the production designer said he had to meet with the toy people a lot.
Dean DeBlois 44:14
Yeah, yeah we. It was fun actually like very much a boy's Wish Come True to sit around and and design potential toys with the makers. We spent quite a few afternoons doing that.
James Deakins 44:26
Let's find out. They also do that in some live action films too, they start talking about dolls and stuff like that in your, your, your only three days into the shoot and you're going what.
Dean DeBlois 44:40
But I'm equally as inspired by small films with micro budgets that that take a chance and tell a really emotional story and at the end of the day, the films that have changed me personally, are the types of movies I aspire to make, and I'm talking about films like boyhood or, or Dead Poets Society where my outlook was actually changed, where I felt like I didn't want to watch the film again because I didn't want to dissect it, it just had such a palpable visceral impact on me. And I would, I love the challenge of making a film for a big audience and trying to make it successful for the studio. And there's something nice about the, the wide fan base that the films like How to Train Your Dragon have gained. But I do think my spirit is independent. I would like to. I would love to make small films that don't cost very much that take more risk.
James Deakins 45:40
You kind of have to have an independent spirit if you want to create those kind of darker storylines. Because, not really the favorite of big you know budget movies. Yeah, exactly.
Dean DeBlois 45:53
They don't cost much they don't make much, but just in general, but I'm glad they exist.
James Deakins 46:00
Yeah, yeah, who actually found the material of How to Train Your Dragon. There was a
Dean DeBlois 46:06
book fair and Italian Book Fair, and one of our development, people, Chris cruiser. I believe I found the book there, and made the deal for for DreamWorks to acquire the option,
James Deakins 46:18
and it was, was it a series of three books. It is
Dean DeBlois 46:21
a series of 11 books
written by Chris in Macau, is an eccentric wonderful very talented British author, and we were really afraid to meet her because we changed so much about her story on the first film, and we were expecting a very stuffy sort of Angela Lansbury type that was going to toss her tea at us and throw her doilies and in fact she was just this very eccentric illustrator first author second creative spirit and I'm sure it was jarring to see how much had changed but she got behind it right away and realize that there was a great fandom for her books and now there would be a fandom for this, this offspring of her books this. This interpretation, which, you know, that's how she sees it it's just an artistic interpretation of a world she'd created, and she's been a great support all along.
James Deakins 47:15
Was she more involved in part two and three
Dean DeBlois 47:18
involved in the sense that I would send her early screenplays and we'd invite her to see in progress screenings, invite her to be part of the press afterward as well, but she's the type of person who she's quite bold and cheeky. And so I could send her. I could send her an email about a discussion or pressure I was under to change something. And I knew that she always had my back and, and she often would stand up for the bolder idea. So I really appreciate that about her team,
James Deakins 47:50
bringing a life to story that was already something in the form of books. How is that process for you as a writer to bring that to a screenplay, just talk about the challenges or what you do to make that into a movie.
Dean DeBlois 48:03
Well adaptation, I think is probably a very difficult thing to do, we, we were given carte blanche to reinvent. So we kept elements, really broad elements like dragons and Viking world, and a Viking chief who has an inept son who's determined to be like everyone else, a few things like that, but largely the story was reinvented toothless for example in the books is a small talking dragon about the size of a Chihuahua. That's about the adventure of this 10 year old Viking who he selects as part of their right their tradition, young Vikings Go to Select an egg and from that egg they raise a dragon to do tricks and. And they do, they, they train them by yelling at them and braiding them, and hiccup is kind of a sensitive underdog, son of the chief who is a disappointment to everybody but and the egg that he picks yields a very disappointing little dragon, but because he's kind to it it does tricks that far surpass anyone elses. And it's only until the very end, that they're really put to the test when the hostile dragon comes to their shores and it's hiccup and this little dragon toothless that that deal with the threat is very different story. And it's very sweet story and very popular, but they quickly realized that it didn't have the breadth and reach and scope that they needed for, for the investment they were putting into
James Deakins 49:33
it. Was it always conceived as a three parter.
Dean DeBlois 49:36
No, no. In fact, like I said when Chris called me up there were about 15 months left to release. So he just said, Can you help me. Can you help me jump into this, and it's gonna be crazy. But we have to get to the finish line with something that that hopefully works. We weren't thinking about anything beyond that. It wasn't until the film went out there as a success that I was asked to come up with ideas for a sequel. And I, I just have a general allergy to sequels because they feel they just lack purpose in general, I feel like cash grabs and. So I said, well, let's. There are unanswered questions within the story like hiccups some other and and other elements, why don't we craft a trilogy, a true three part story three acts of one coming of age, and take up we'll go from this inept character that no one believes into a Viking Chief, by the end of it, who's who's wise wise enough to cut the ties with the dragon that got him there. So it was, it was designed at that point to be a coming of age and that's, that's really what inspired the idea of of leaping ahead in terms of years within the character's life and meeting him five years later, as a young man on the cusp of adulthood. Taking the story forward.
James Deakins 50:56
They did do a television series right yes how to turn your dragon, they do you involved in Not at all.
Dean DeBlois 51:03
I only I met with the, with the show runners so occasionally we'd have dinner and they tell me what they were working on and I would tell them what I was doing just so that we weren't stepping on one another's toes.
James Deakins 51:13
And because that happened concurrently.
Dean DeBlois 51:16
It was Yeah, and they would fill the years between the movies. Oh, the character years between the movies so the first few seasons of a television show occupied the space between How to Train Your Dragon one and two. And then the last, I think the last couple seasons occupied between two and three, certainly would have hopefully a sense of consistency through. There were characters and villains that were introduced in the series that never that are never mentioned in the films. So it's not entirely consistent in that sense but for the most part we did. We did our best to make sure that it felt like there was a unity, to the whole
James Deakins 51:57
team you obviously have quite an excellent grasp on story and being a director you use it through everything that you do something I think is a theme in Hollywood is looking at classics and like just the fundamentals of story, and you talked about Robert McKee too. Can you just talk about boring story and for directors or people who want to become directors, how do they get that better feel of the fundamentals of story.
Dean DeBlois 52:22
Well, in my personal experience and everybody comes comes to it with a different opinion. I've. I felt that the more macro you can be with your story, the better. I spent a lot of time outlining with just a couple of pages, so that I know that every scene is a fundamental building block and it often looks a little formulaic at that at that stage, but I can use an example from. How to Train Your Dragon as to illustrate my point. We had a board. We put together a board. Very early on that was based on on some of the beats in a book called save the cat by Blake Snyder, is a former screenwriter he passed away. Unfortunately, but he was a friend of mine and yeah he had distilled a lot of a lot of story theory into something that was really practical and easy to use and fun. And a good starting place. And it helped us build a new structure for a father son story and How to Train Your Dragon, one of those beats was hiccup the son begins a devil life by befriending the enemy doing the exact opposite of what his father expects them to do. And there's a communion moment between the boy, and the dragon in private. And we, for the longest time that beat was just pinned up on the board as the Black Stallion moment was that you know Caleb Deschanel beautiful photography of the, of the boy and, and the stallion on the beach after the shipwreck and how they come to trust one another, and eventually ends with the boy riding the horse. That was like I say for the longest time just the Black Stallion moment It sounded like the most generic rip off beat of all, but in execution. You know, we thought through it, we thought how we bring something fresh to this idea this sort of fundamental building block of our story. And it became what is the most iconic moment of the movie and possibly the trilogy. Just that little dance that they do as they're drawing in the sand and finally come face to face and the first moment of contact people cite that as the most poetic moment of certainly the first film and maybe the whole thing. And that came from the most generic place, so I think it's an execution, you know, there, there are a lot of these building blocks that seem a little stale and overused. But they are in many ways essential. So I would say my approach is always, how do I pull back. I learned a lesson from john Lasseter, when he was overseeing Disney in the early days. Shortly after Disney bought Pixar. And he said, Tell me your story. In, in the most generic terms I don't want to know the world, I don't want to know any of the specifics, just tell me your story. And it so that it could be told with robots in space or cavemen, you know, or brokers in Wall Street, it's what is, what is the base story, what's the what's the transformation of your character, you know, where does he or she started Where does he or she and and who are the characters that impact that journey, and at what stage, and and so it's it's the most macro view. And if that's solid, then you can go back in and dress it up with the details of your world, and the specifics of your character and the more specific and original you can get at that stage, the more it will feel unique, if that makes sense. But you know if anyone's curious and I know it's a controversial book because people cite it as being formulaic, I think it's really, I think it's been a great help to me, because it's, it's saved the cat by Blake Snyder. I like it because I read it after years of working in the Disney star department on both Milan and Lilo and Stitch. And coming to find the rhythms and the sort of the structure of the story, very organically through trial and error. By the time it all felt right. And it was ready to, to become the final film. It had fallen into the order that is described in that book, because that book is an observation of hundreds of movies that are that are deemed classics and very successful and they do have common DNA, because there's a certain way that human beings tell stories, and if they're missing some of these elements, it feels a little wrong, it's hard to put your finger on sometimes, but that's one thing the book, helps to outline it gives you questions that really put your idea to the test. And, and helps you discover whether or not it has the material to really stand up.
James Deakins 57:00
Yeah, I've read the book and like you said, I've heard people saying oh it's, it is too formulaic and it's something that you have to watch out for but exactly as you're saying, it gives you an idea of the foundations of it and it helps you understand what's there, and then you can go on and break in and stuff that
Unknown Speaker 57:16
we've talked about with Roger about
James Deakins 57:18
learning composition or waiting and it's
Unknown Speaker 57:20
the 180 degree rule and if you know it,
James Deakins 57:23
then you can go out there and kind of change it and create your own narrative I think it's really important.
Dean DeBlois 57:28
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great starting place, and. And then you end up with examples like No Country for Old Men, where there's a strange feeling this disquieting feeling at the end. You know when the when the villain walks off and you think well that's not the way it's supposed to end becomes the point of the story, you know, it becomes a very a very deliberate decision to veer away from convention, and that's what makes it so strong because it starts at a place of convention. So Dean we've
James Deakins 57:56
over the last couple of episodes on animation we've talked to Roger and his work in it. We've talked to the head of story head of layout, and you being a director, really want to understand how you're wrapping that all together and you have all these different people in similar live action but they're working on different facets. So what kind of what is your job and how do you help wrangle that into one final picture.
Dean DeBlois 58:21
I think if I've learned anything over the, over the last decade and probably add Lilo and Stitch to that as well it's to surround yourself with the people who inspire you, who are the best that you can find and allow them to reign dominion over their aspect of the filmmaking can empower them to be as creative as, as they can be to challenge ideas and to bring better ones into the fray and that way they feel invested and they feel really proud of it. And I feel super supported because I'm not put in a position where I suddenly have to guess or act like I'm an authority in all of these different areas of filmmaking. If there's anything that they entrust me with its story and so I feel great pressure and that's a full time job in itself, to make sure that we're spending our time and resources and talents on moments that will actually make it to the screen. So I tried to be. I tried to go to every meeting, whether it's with animators or modelers or layout people storyboard artists, always trying to come with that knowledge of the story, and a strong point of view about what I would love to get across emotionally and. And then also be opened to ideas that challenge that. But mostly, mostly it's just finding people who are really good at what they do and empowering them to do it.
James Deakins 59:57
And I think people that are very good at what they do and are very invested in what they're doing, want to give you what you want, because that is why we all work we're working to create the director's vision. I mean that is the structure of movies. So, by making people invested gives them more incentive to do what you want.
Dean DeBlois 1:00:22
In my early years in working for Don Bluth in Ireland, I worked on some pretty awful movies toward the end of their run, but the, the talent of the people working on the films was no less than, you know the the folks that I've worked with a Disney or DreamWorks. It's just that the some of the decisions being made from a story perspective, up front, are not we're not all that great. And I just remember putting nights and weekends in. into into what my art you know my contribution to these films and ultimately being embarrassed by the end result when the film came together and I didn't even want to tell people that had worked on them. So I, I made a pact with myself at the time, that if I ever get into a position where I'm calling shots either as a director or department head that I want the crew to be really proud of what we've made together at the end that we could sit in a theater at the wrap party, and with our loved ones and say look, it was worth it you know those those postponed vacations and late nights and weekends were spent on this added up to something that's timeless it's going to affect people and it's resonant and something to be proud of. So it's great if the movie makes a lot of money and it's well received, but most importantly to me is that the crew is really happy that they would want to get together again to make another movie.
James Deakins 1:01:47
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James Deakins 0:09
Welcome to the team Deakins podcast. This podcast is a dialogue between Roger and James Deakins joined by Matt Wyman starting from a submitted question, and ending. Who knows where. We're also joined by guests on occasion. We're connecting through zoom so bear that in mind when you hear the audio. If you'd like to submit a question, please do so by emailing pod pod at Roger Deakins calm. Today's episode is animation part three. We started with an episode where Roger and I discussed our involvement in animated projects. We then had a great conversation with the heads of layout and lighting on our current project. And today we have a special treat. Joining us is an animation director with whom we've worked three times. He's a three time Oscar nominee, a brilliant writer as well as our director and has also directed live action, you'll know him best by the movies Lilo and Stitch, and the three How to Train Your Dragon movies. We're very pleased to welcome Dean to block today.
Dean DeBlois 1:18
Thank you very much, proud to be here very honored,
James Deakins 1:21
Dean we have so much to talk about. But I'd like to start with a little bit about your history, how did you get into animation. Did you know as a lad you wanted to work in animation.
Dean DeBlois 1:32
I could always draw, and I was fascinated by comic books and that's really where I learned to draw. I love the storytelling I love the world building, and I love the dynamic compositions that was really exciting to me so the idea of creating my own story and characters, and then being able to lay them out in in comic book form was always really appealing to me I used to make my own comic books and even got to meet a few of my heroes at a local comic conventions, but when it came time to pursuing a career I didn't know how to connect those dots. Marvel and DC in Manhattan and me and Elmer kaback it just didn't seem viable. So I looked around and the closest thing I could find was an animation program being taught a summer school at Sheridan College just outside of Toronto. And I decided to give it a shot and what I found out was, it was everything that I loved about comic books brought to life for a world audience. And so, I had an aptitude for it and, and I threw myself into it and got hired out of school to go work for Don Bluth and Ireland, he's a, an ex Disney vet to head started his own studio, along with the help of Steven Spielberg and they made films like an American tale Land Before Time. All Dogs Go to have in the secret of nim was their first feature film, and it's where I went to kind of cut my teeth and work with some very talented people that all prepared me to get hired at the Disney Studios.
James Deakins 3:02
So did you start working by drawing. Was that your first job, drawing things. Yes,
Dean DeBlois 3:08
yes I was a background designer. They called layout, and that was, that was my job I would design up the backgrounds for for the characters to be placed against that would be later painted by background artists background painters, and it was. It was a great way to, to not only refine my drawing ability but to learn about further learn about composition and directing the eye and where to place characters in a frame. Follow them through camera movement. Later I started doing character designs and finally before I left the Don Bluth studio I became his storyboard assistant. And so that was, that's really where it all came together for me because I felt like I was, I was able to direct my own little mini parts of the film. And when I joined the Walt Disney Studios that's what I, that's what I wanted to be part of and I found myself in the story department.
James Deakins 4:00
So you find this story department has the best of both because it's the story because obviously as a writer you like stories. And it's also the drawing and creating the environments. Yeah, what I quickly realized
Dean DeBlois 4:13
especially at the download studio and it continued throughout my early career was that the, the writers that they found themselves working with were not very, we're not very good. So, it always felt like the stories were lacking. And it made me very curious about story I'd never studied writing, but I threw myself into that as well and then I went to go take a Robert McKee weekend workshop in London, that opened my eyes and started reading every book I could find on it and started refining my own stories and I realized that that was really where the dearth was in animation. So if I could be a storyboard artist that gave me the chance, the opportunity to really visualize a lot of the storytelling instincts that I had, but at the same time, just really work on character and story arcs and as much as I could use that off time to begin to write my own material.
James Deakins 5:08
And did you find that by writing Lilo and Stitch that gave you the sort of tool to be able to say to them well yeah you can have
Dean DeBlois 5:18
this, if I can direct it. Chris Sanders and I were partnering together on Lilo and Stitch to direct it, but they kept telling us that they were going to hire real writers at some point. We were largely left alone because that film was made in Florida. By the time that they realized how far the film had gone, and how singular, its voice was they dropped the idea of bringing a professional into the mix and we became screenwriters as a result of it.
James Deakins 5:46
That's great. That's great. And then right after Lilo and Stitch What did you do.
Dean DeBlois 5:51
I had a hopper of ideas about 20 ideas that I had been working on. And most of them were live action in my mind. So I thought it was a good opportunity to see whether or not anyone in the town would be interested in these ideas so I put together pitch packages for a few of them got an agent and went around and pitched, and I sold three of them. So for eight years, I worked on multiple drafts, and each project. Unfortunately fell to the same demise which was there was a change in presidency at both the Walt Disney Studios and then at Universal Studios so the president who had bought my projects was ousted replaced by somebody who wanted to clear the slate and follow their sensibilities. And so,
James Deakins 6:39
Hollywood Story.
Dean DeBlois 6:41
It was, it was eight years I wouldn't say it was wasted but I learned I learned a lot. I mean, one film had a start date. We had our cinematographer and production designer and art director and we were going after our cast we had locations set in, and we were going to be shooting and in Ireland on location on the west coast and Dingle and then the Ardmore studios, just outside of Dublin. I mean, it was, had an approved budget, we were, we were so close, and then it all, it all kind of fell apart with, with the departure of Nina Jacobson, Dean were you also attached to direct those. Yes, I was. I was writing to direct them, and that was going to be my directorial debut in live action, but after after eight floundering years, I, I got kind of a rescue call from my old cohort. Chris Sanders, the guy that I hadn't written and directed Lilo and Stitch with. And he said, Listen, I'm over at DreamWorks and they've thrown me this project called How To Train Your Dragon. It's two years into its production, and it has a fixed release date, 15 months from now, but they need a page one reconceived would you jump onto it with me. So we, I found myself that Monday morning, sitting in a conference table with Jeffrey Katzenberg telling us what he wanted and, and how their various attempts to faithfully adapt the book upon which it was based was was leading nowhere so yeah we were given three mandates he said I want to father and son story, and a big David and Goliath ending, and Harry Potter tone.
James Deakins 8:16
And that was it. But it's interesting because that material, had a certain amount of darkness to it. I mean, the kid loses his leg. That's not good. And his father. So, did you have to struggle because I find a lot of times with animation because it started out as cartoons for children, they do have this thing of let's not upset our audience. But the thing about How To Train Your Dragon was because it did go into different areas and story and I think it was really wonderful but did you have to struggle to get to keep those elements. It was always
Dean DeBlois 8:53
a struggle but that was, that was our sensibility, and we, I think, I always come to projects, even if they're animated with a live action sensibility that's the way I write the screenplay. Yeah, it, it doesn't interest me to play it light, all of the time, and of course hiccup losing his leg or losing his father, a lot of the, the grittier story elements of the films are not in the books, and that was something we brought to the mix, but it was something we wanted to create a world that had consequences to it. And that was a large part of why we approached yourself and Roger to come into the mix.
James Deakins 9:30
Do you think it's in animation is that an advantage to be to write the script as well as directed. And is that the way it normally is that the people who are directing or writing.
Dean DeBlois 9:42
I don't know if it's normally That way I know that there are some writer directors like Brad Bird and a few others, I, I don't see any other way, to be honest because as a storyboard artist I would tend to set aside the script pages I was given and reinvent them try to make them better. Yeah, but for me, because I don't have as much time to storyboard writing is my means of visualizing the ideas, so that I can communicate them to other people. If I'm not writing it if I'm simply reinterpreting somebody else's screenplay, then I feel less invested in it I have less confidence and I feel an overall lack of authorship
over the material,
Roger Deakins 10:25
what's the kind of difference working on on How To Train Your Dragon series, then, then what you weren't going to do live action wise the film you were going to do an island. Is that a big change big shift for you.
Dean DeBlois 10:38
It wasn't, I think the film that I was going to make an Ireland was intended to be a broad audience family film. It was a ghost story set during the Great Famine, so it has dark elements to it but ultimately it's a very wish fulfilling story of a young lad who has escaped from a workhouse and impersonates everything that the people of the towns are terrified of the witches banshees fairy folk, but into his life comes an actual ghost from, from a famine ship that had wrecked upon the shores, and she's in this desperate bind between the world of the living and the world of the dead, trying to find your father and having nowhere to turn. And so she turns to the charlatan who claims to know everything about anything other worldly, and it becomes this sort of African Queen like contentious relationship where he attempts to get her to the other side of she'll scratch his back and help him make a few big robberies and in the process he falls in love with it, and it becomes a story of first loss. First Love and first loss. He jeopardizes her opportunity to move on to the hereafter. Out of need to keep her close and it becomes a transform a transformational story that changes his world forever. It's about a ghost teaching a living a living legend how to, How to truly live.
James Deakins 12:01
This sounds good. I want to see this one
Roger Deakins 12:05
right now would you would you ever consider doing that as an animated film, or would you ever consider going back to try and get it together as live action.
Dean DeBlois 12:15
I think with what we accomplished on the dragon films together, it, it's so straddles the line between live action and animation in terms of its sensibility and look, yeah, I absolutely do think it could be done in animation. It's just unfortunately it's one of those projects that has held up with a huge price tag against it.
Roger Deakins 12:35
So because development money's already been put into it. Yes. Yeah, it comes with a lead, lead way around it does, it does oh boy oh boy. Those yeah you know there's trouble there's some wonderful projects out there but they come with like five or 10 or $15 million kind of dead weight. Never get them together. I mean think about How To Train Your Dragon series is it did seem to kind of reach a wider audience than most animated films, I mean there's some animated films like Waltz with Bashir that's only going to have an adult audience but that's a specific thing. Most of the American Hollywood movies are really geared towards, you know, young kids really aren't they are teenagers at the most, but they're How to Train Your Dragon series seem to have a much wider audience Do you think that's a possibility with animation to come.
Dean DeBlois 13:32
I do think it's a possibility because those that I think recently the films that pander to just a very young audience don't seem to do as well, and it's those those films like, like most of the Pixar films, try to reach for something that's a bit more in terms of its themes, it, it not only entertains, the young audience but it's, it's speaking to something much more mature on screen simultaneously. And that becomes. I think the greater aspiration throughout the industry. It does seem right. It does seem to reward the studios for taking a few risks and trying to do so right that's different and truly universal something truly speaking to the older demographic as well.
James Deakins 14:16
And it's also kind of fun because with the tools of animation, you can go to places sometimes that you can't. and and
Dean DeBlois 14:24
live action. Yeah, I mean we, I think we've realized by the end of. How to Train Your Dragon three that were there was the all of the restrictions that had previously held us back or caused us to rethink our ambition, were lifted and and the technology is advanced in such a way that. If you can dream it up and communicate it to a crew it's, it is plausible. It may be expensive may require a lot of time but we no longer have to resort to to matte paintings and scaling back the numbers of characters on screen or, or just dialing back. The scope and ambition, because it can be done, each one of those departments have have excelled, and something like the hidden world as a space that even in Dragon two would have had to have been matte paintings and we've had, we would have had to restrict our, our camera paths and restrict the numbers of dragons that were filling the space, but yeah,
Roger Deakins 15:25
it was amazing. The difference between that how the first one on the third one, the difference and the technology and as you say they ambition, you think, wow, I mean what what could be done that was amazing change, I suppose it was a few years.
James Deakins 15:41
So also to that with with the change of technology, you have to be careful because yes you can see every detail and every leaf in the forest, but you wouldn't, if you were shooting that live action. so it kind of draws you out of it so you have to be careful just because you can do all these things, maybe you shouldn't.
Dean DeBlois 16:01
I think that's the greatest lesson that that Roger imparted upon the free naysayer. Not so much naysayer but he would often question whether it was in the design of the shots, and their movement. He would often say okay, you know that's it's nice it's a bit showy but whose point of view, are you following and how is it advancing the story. And it was always a reminder even with the lighting. Sure you can see into every shadow and see every detail but do you want to, and. And it's I what I took away from it was just the, the discipline of restraint. We do have the ability to show and do anything in animation but it, it actually works against us, because it takes the audience out or it stops them from believing in the world that we're trying to conjure, and then, and so I think by imparting some, some restrictions some real world sensibilities. It actually makes the, the characters in the world feel real.
Roger Deakins 17:04
Yeah, I mean, I think, i mean i bring that from live action could you see so many live action films, because the technology is so amazing. You can do anything with a camera like you can do a film in one take. Hahaha. No, you don't necessarily want to do that on every film, you know it's it's right in it's in certain circumstances that we were talking to a young guy. Yesterday, you know, remember from drills. And we were talking about how long croods, so much of that was almost like cinema verite a sort of, you know, documentary kind of long takes moving cameras observational almost in a sense, which is like the antithesis of some dragon really you know you're, you're thinking of things much more in compose shots and letting things play in frames at times you know and you're varying, a lot, you know, and it's just a could you can do it doesn't mean to say you should.
Dean DeBlois 18:02
I think young duck did it to, to an extreme, but we also tried in Dragon to suggest that there was an operator behind the camera. Yeah, little pumps and overshoots and jostles, the camera and helped to remove the, the kind of glassy perfection of computer camera moves. And yes,
Roger Deakins 18:25
there is a certain language isn't that you know that then the camera that's the thing so if you like to introduce that kind of language from live action into animation. It's strange you do get a sense of heightened reality. Yeah.
James Deakins 18:40
And since you did three a trilogy of How to Train Your Dragon and since, as we have certainly found out on our other episodes how long these projects are. Was it a big challenge because you did one and then it was gonna be years later when two came out and you have to maintain that same feeling. How did you deal with that.
Dean DeBlois 19:04
Well it was, it was twofold I really loved the crew and I loved the cast and the idea of continuing to work with them was exciting to me, but I also recognized how much of a time investment, it was going to be. I briefly looked around after How to Train Your Dragon the first film to see what live action opportunities might be sitting out there and they weren't great. So I thought well maybe if I continue with Dragon two and three and direct those solo, I might have, you know, a more significant body of work and maybe more clout, and relevance to get live action projects off the ground when I was finished, but I knew it would be a decade commitment at that point,
James Deakins 19:48
you keep talking about live action and seeing that you come from an animated background and come from comics. What are the differences that you see in your role as a director, and is it something that would scare you when you think there'd be a learning curve and say wow you know, I really want to do this live action thing but there's going to be a ramp up time between what I've known and done in animation and may have to get used to, in a live action film.
Dean DeBlois 20:13
I think that's exactly why I'm excited by it because I'm fearful of it. I love to be thrown in the deep end and I love to learn new things. And there's just something about the idea of live action film working with actors performances working with the, the opportunities presented on the day by the sets and the ideas that would be coming from the crew and the immediacy of it is, is really appealing to me. And I know a lot of people that stand around on live action sense that sets kind of talk about the drudgery of of everything being set up and taken down but it's nothing compared to yours invested the glacial pace of animation. And lastly, I think it's just there is the reach of the audience is promises, more in terms of my sensibilities with a live action film than often animated movies do like Like it or not, and though it's changing animated films are always relegated to the kiddie table there was dismissed as children's entertainment, out of the gate. And it's an itch I've been wanting to scratch for a while, I think, but it's all dependent on the material and like I said most of my stories, lend themselves more toward live action than they do animation.
James Deakins 21:32
I also I've heard stories of animated directors going into live action and on their first feature shooting a scene and not really liking it and going, oh well we'll just redo this, because you can. No, you don't have that, today's the day and that's it. And having to deal with that, which does bring a lot of pressure on the set but also a lot of adrenaline and excitement of, this is what it's going to be
Roger Deakins 22:01
on me is what I love about live action, I mean you know it's really interesting working on animation but the timescale I couldn't, I couldn't do. I couldn't do it full time as a career I couldn't, I love the live action thing. I mean, it really is scary sometimes, you know, you've got a half an hour the lights going and you've got to get a long, complicated taken house. You know you're behind schedule and I just love it.
James Deakins 22:25
It's kind of interesting. It's kind of like the difference between prep and actually shooting cousin prep, as you get towards the end of the prep it. It's just will drive you crazy because you keep going over the same thing over and over well what if this happens, what if that happens, what, what do we do then and you're just repeating and repeating, because you have the time, done when you're shooting, you're just doing. And so, yeah, we could have done it this way but we didn't. So this is
Roger Deakins 22:53
just to be on the set and then actually have the confidence to change your mind, and whether that is the director or myself as the cameraman say, I mean I've a couple of times. A couple of times out of 60 years turns to the director and said, I've got to start again, you know, I want to start again because I can do this much better but I can do it within schedule, you know, that I kind of love that, I love that sort of making those choices.
Dean DeBlois 23:18
Yeah, it's amazing and there's an, there is a decisive immediacy to all of it and like it or not, you have to live with it and yeah I mean I've had little experiences I've shot music videos and I've done some concert documentary work and, and there is that sense of immediacy as well but there's also the great thrill of getting your footage back and just seeing what you accomplished and is. Yeah, I love that immediacy animation, you have to wait you know you have to wait for a year and a half before you see a finished print of anything. And it's not to put it down I love it as an art form and I think it's really beautiful and timeless. And I would never turn my back on it. I just want to expand the toolbox.
James Deakins 24:02
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's something about having limitations that creates, I don't know that you find a solution that you didn't think you had, you wouldn't if you had no limitations, you would have gone down the easy route perhaps but with limitations. You have to find that solution and the solution is usually even better than you thought. So, if that makes any sense. It does.
Dean DeBlois 24:29
Does and there's an energy there's an energy to that collective group, everybody's working within their discipline, but they're all part of the whole and they're all contributing ideas and
Roger Deakins 24:38
it's no focused on that moment, yes yeah they're all focused on capturing that one special moment on that one short piece of film, because it's now digital but same business Same, same idea that you're focusing on this one little performance take creation of a moment. Yeah.
James Deakins 24:57
Do you think that an animation director going into live action actually has an advantage when it comes to visual effects, because you've spent so much time with computer graphics and seeing what happens if you push it too far too little that you might come into it with a little more experience in that area.
Dean DeBlois 25:18
I think in that area. Yes, there's a familiarity with, with the craft of creating what isn't there, and knowing the limitations of what you can create is is also an advantage I think some directors that are not as familiar with digital creation is, they might come into a thinking or expecting more than can actually be accomplished or not recognize the cost and and time and labor that will go into creating that thing. But on the other side, it does you know just based on the history of animation directors moving into live action they also come in with a sense of of ease that they can always go back and rework a moment, you know, take it back to storyboard and reconceived it as we often do an animation. Yeah, well into production and and so that that sense of preparedness of having a really solid script and a really solid plan in terms of storyboards and shot lists and really walking through the location with the location scout and knowing what is feasible and how long it will take to shoot it. I'm aware that I have to be super prepared on that level. Because it is. It's just so much more malleable in animation.
James Deakins 26:33
Yeah, and that's actually a good thing because I think oftentimes a lot of productions don't have that kind of prep is there all different kinds of productions in some sort of make it up on the day but I always like it when they have addressed these things ahead of time and we have this game plan, even though it might change.
Roger Deakins 26:54
You need a plan, you can always throw it away but you. If you haven't got a plan then sometimes you can really come unstuck.
Dean DeBlois 27:01
Yeah, I think that's a that's a general generally for me in my career, it's always been the way two approaches, walk into a room with a solid idea. One that you've really considered, and then be open to it. It's embellishment be open to new ideas that might take it in a direction that's less cliche, a little more surprising. Something that that you might not have considered but it's so much better. I think that same attitude should carry forward onto a live action set as well. A lot of people who've been doing this for a long time, who might have some really great ideas on how to make something better. But I wouldn't walk onto a set. And just turn to Roger or anyone else to say okay so what do we do, I would, I would, I would have to feel somewhat prepared, whether it's through storyboards or just having really thought through the pages that we're planning to shoot.
Roger Deakins 27:55
Yeah, because even if that's just a talking point that's the thing that's that that that's what you want. I mean it's not, I don't feel, I mean I always come on set with an idea but I'm not necessarily, I'm not attached to it in any sense, it's just as a talking point with a director and I'm like come on the certain directors got a different idea and I, and then we might find a third idea that is not what either of us expected or actor might come up with something or you look at the set and go, Oh, well this is obvious we do this you know which is very much how we work with Danny actually isn't it.
James Deakins 28:31
Yeah, and I do think that the value of prepping everything is to not only figure out how you're going to shoot it or what locations but also to really know the scenes and to know this scene is important because it's the first time we realized that somebody blah blah blah. And so, because you've got that in your mind if you change things on the day in the back of your mind you're remembering, but what we need to convey in the scene, because this is why it's important is the first time we see whatever. So I think the more that you know the purpose of each scene, the more you can be more flexible on the day because you're not gonna lose the point of the scene because on the day, there's so much pressure, and there's so much going on that sometimes you're just trying to get it in the can. And it's important to remember why that scene is there to begin with. And as a writer, you really know that because you put it there.
Roger Deakins 29:33
So many times I think on, on, on, on a live action set you might you might be doing a scene with like 1000 extras that's I mean that's being extreme, but actually the scene is about one character standing there and those people are just background to what is happening in his head. And there's such a danger of going on a set as like, I've got all these extras I've got this great big set I've got all said such a day let's get 20 cameras. They're really what you need is a close up of that character, with all those people moving in the background but they're not really important. You know what I mean. And, and I think the fact that you write and direct you know that's what the crucial element is that scene what you've written. And that's, that's what I think in prep anyway that this is you've got a sense of the crucial part of the, the moment, because, because just the stress of doing live action and that sort of production and producers kind of pressure on the day and filming everything that I spent the money on can take you away from actually what's important in the scene.
Dean DeBlois 30:43
I think that's what's so important about having a collaborator like yourself on the production, because I get as dazzled by the extras and the toys, as anyone else I could, I could be easily persuaded to indulge and and oftentimes we have people above us who want certain things I remember very clearly on How To Train Your Dragon, the first film. It had been the tradition to light, everything in such a way that you saw every detail every prop that had been had been exhaustively designed the cost money that was used to dress the set needed to be lit with with candy colors and gloss and then here comes Roger who would cast the entire remember remember hiccups workshop. Let's just use, let's just use the candlelight as practical lights within the shot and let, let it fall off into black and not not a dark black
James Deakins 31:48
action designer and the animators weren't so happy.
Dean DeBlois 31:51
We were well no we were all nervous because we had heard so many times from from Jeffrey Katzenberg that you know if he was paying for it. He wanted to see it. So we made sure to have Roger in the room, the first time that we debuted lighting of that particular scene. Right. He sat and strategically sat right beside Jeffrey and it was, it was great because it really opened the door for something that we hadn't done, and really no one had done at that point because that was prior to you, collaborating with Gore Verbinski on Rango. So there was really no, yes. Aside from, aside from that first act of Wally, and I know that quite a bit of influence on that from the workshops you did up at Pixar. I hadn't seen anything in animation CG animation that had that kind of grit, or sense of naturalism to it. It really gave it emotional heft, and it was very different for our studio. And it became a defining look for the trilogy. But I wouldn't have had the guts to go there, honestly. Had you not been there.
Roger Deakins 33:04
We that is the fun of it though, isn't it, but the fun of it it's also the scary part like we were saying about live action you make that decision on the set, you know, I mean the number of times when I shoot and film and center direct okay. You mind if I play this in silhouette. You know what I mean. But what's the silhouette and then, you know, the director doesn't really see what you mean by silhouette until they watch the dailies
James Deakins 33:29
film Yeah,
Roger Deakins 33:31
but I mean that's that's that's the joy of it, you know, is to
James Deakins 33:35
push it a little bit
Roger Deakins 33:36
push it stretch it use all the possibilities. Yeah,
Dean DeBlois 33:39
I don't know, I mean maybe it might be interesting for your listeners to know why we asked Roger to come in for that pitch in the first place. And it's because Chris Andrews and I have come from a hand drawn animation background. And in that process. There is always a step before you go into production, where you create a workbook drawing, which is really a single frame for every shot of the movie that shows where the light and shadow and composition is going to play out just a, you know, a graphite pencil drawing, but everybody has a sense of okay this is what the background, the painted background is going to have to do in terms of lighting shadows so it's going to affect the colors of the characters and their position within the frame, even through the blocking of the shot in CG animation we quickly realized they don't have that step. And so early on before animation begins coming out of storyboards they create virtual shots, and they they choose lenses. They create camera movement, and they lock off the compositions months away from the very first lighting test. So, we were both scratching our heads wondering how could you walk off the top position without knowing where the light and shadow is going to fall, it seemed really strange to us but that was just the process. And we were learning very quickly but we thought, maybe it might be best to bring in somebody who has some experience and interest in this medium. Someone that we all respect, and who's whose lightning, you know, speaks for himself, and maybe do some talks with us in the vein of what Roger had done with Wally. And so we invited Roger into the mix, and we pitched the movie, and to our great delight he he wanted to be part of the whole production, as well as you James and so it was a it was a gift we didn't see coming because we thought we might get a couple of days of workshops out of it. And then we ended up getting your your your. He couldn't get rid of us. But it transformed the movie from start to finish it wasn't just. It wasn't just represented in the first act like in Wally is something went from the first frame to the last, and what it really did was marry those two departments that previously hadn't communicated a whole lot from the, the camera department to the lighting department, and it became an overall discussion with, with the production designer and our visual effects supervisor, so it was a it transformed the way that DreamWorks was producing their films, because we were new to CG animation it's just the way that we were asked to do it but yeah, it was great because we had Roger. In the beginning, helping to select images that were inspiring in terms of mood and atmosphere color building boards that would surround an entire conference room to advising on storyboards and the previous shots. The actual lopped off compositions lens choices, and then all the way through to the end with the final lighting in the DI.
James Deakins 36:42
It was actually really great for us to be in the entire process, and really involved in the entire process because if you're going to do it.
Unknown Speaker 36:53
What's the point. Oh, that's what we said,
Roger Deakins 36:56
we're gonna do it let's do it, you know.
Yeah, we've done, done those short times on on Hollywood Pixar, I mean frankly we would have done more on Molly. But at that time we were off doing a live action shoot, so we only worked on the opening sequences,
James Deakins 37:14
and it will also was the very first time of this collaboration between animation and a live action person so everybody was trying to figure out how it would work because they were used to going off on their own and working on a scene and not necessarily bringing people in so it was a real learning experience I think yes and then for the workflow,
Roger Deakins 37:35
buddy, getting the remote, you know the access yeah work on it remotely. Yeah, yeah be away and come back and forth. Yeah.
Dean DeBlois 37:42
And that was all thanks to James actually
what James You were great about maximizing Rodgers input in the movie. You know, not just dropping in every now and then but actually making sure that he was constantly abreast of anything that was developing and changing and so we had a mobile system set up for you while you were working on Skyfall or their movie, you could check on our progress as well, be it storyboards or shots that were coming in fully lit. And it's I think a great testament to your dedication to make it to make it work even when you would schedule days to be there live and in person to make sure the days were full of meetings for yourself and Roger to attend because it worked too well
James Deakins 38:30
because they really jammed him in.
Dean DeBlois 38:33
But I don't think anyone would have had you not said listen we're here, you know, we've said yes we're part of it so make make the most of it.
James Deakins 38:44
It was really fun to because for me I had to really get to know the technical process, which was so mind boggling to me the way, coming from live action the way it worked, and to understand the steps, each scenes went through and to make sure that we were in part of all of them. So it was fun.
Roger Deakins 39:05
You'll make me feel quite nostalgic for that time of DreamWorks. We really enjoyed it. I mean it was, it really was a dream and it was great,
James Deakins 39:14
and also preserved the launch
Roger Deakins 39:16
of a sale. But the moment and the development of anime computer animation, you know the development of the technology and then having people like you kind of China stretch it with the kind of films who are making I think it was a moment, you look back at that as a moment in film history that it won't be like can't be like that again because you know the technology now has moved on, you've got the Lion King or whatever you want but
James Deakins 39:42
I do hope that actually animation goes forward and pushing the envelope and doing things like line drawings versus something really visual and fun and tells the story so it needs a good story, and a strong. Not, not necessarily a child's visual, it would be really fun.
Roger Deakins 40:05
But what do you see how do you see it. I mean, animation and live action and CG, how do you see film, you know, how do you see see film developing over the next 10 years or so.
Yeah, question.
Dean DeBlois 40:22
Question. I will say that I was, I was quite inspired by the work that was done on spider man into the spider verse, because they, they took CG animation where it stood and applied it to a very graphic comic book sensibility. In yeah in a really dimensional interesting way. And I thought that was very brave, they really took a risk and they were rewarded for it. So I, I would say the challenge. The challenge is out there it's been met, at least once or twice, and knowing that we can do anything. We should really push ourselves. Steven Spielberg gave a talk over DreamWorks recently and he was saying I would love to see DreamWorks take on something with a darker, more mature creepier tone to it. And that's, that's something I've been wanting to do forever. But it's always been, it's always been shied away from because it might be too niche or audiences might reject it and these films are so expensive that they they try to hedge their bets by making,
James Deakins 41:24
and then kind of aiming for the young audience because they figure oh well it's animation so we'll get them in so anything that might frighten them, they're not sure they'll get the adults and Exactly,
Dean DeBlois 41:36
exactly. They don't know that they've got the adults and they may cause parents to avoid taking their children to the films, but I grew up on some of those, those creepy Disney films of the times like the. The Watcher in the woods or escaped to Witch Mountain and I loved them, you know I always loved a sense of peril and they weren't gratuitous and violent or bloody or terrifying but they had they had an atmosphere to them that was always really, really appealing to me, and definitely helped shape my, my ambitions for telling stories, so I would, I would love to do that. And I think there's room to, as long as it doesn't, as long as it's not so off putting that the families will avoid it, because there's, there can be there can be fun spooky as well.
James Deakins 42:24
Yeah. And it seems like it might be the smaller companies that would do that because their companies have so much invested, and a big payback from the box office.
Roger Deakins 42:35
Oh, that's a point do you think, I mean you think small animations getting cheaper and cheaper right so i mean other big companies like DreamWorks and Pixar are they going to get more competition from smaller kind of companies that make animated films for half the money and
Dean DeBlois 42:52
so far it's not the case, because there is a there's a quality drop and, more importantly, they don't have the muscle of just distribution behind them. You need that huge marketing machine and financial commitment of a big studio back in your movie to really reach with the audiences that, that, that Pixar and Disney and DreamWorks.
James Deakins 43:14
Also, a lot of the income too is on the toy sales Right. I mean, sometimes you're designing a character so it's a good
Dean DeBlois 43:22
doll. Later, in some cases, yeah, they actually have been to a few presentations from people who are specialists in this field and they they talk about films that are toy attic, you know whether they, whether they have sounds bad or whether they have kind of a wish fulfilling quality to it, that they can see children wanting to play out with action figures and toys, some dope, and that's okay and they just don't invest the money on that end, don't expect any kind of any kind of massive windfall of money from the consumer products dragon was one that they considered to be quite toy high tech and I think it has made a lot of money for the studio with its with its toys and sets and dolls and everything else.
James Deakins 44:08
Yeah. Remember, POV the production designer said he had to meet with the toy people a lot.
Dean DeBlois 44:14
Yeah, yeah we. It was fun actually like very much a boy's Wish Come True to sit around and and design potential toys with the makers. We spent quite a few afternoons doing that.
James Deakins 44:26
Let's find out. They also do that in some live action films too, they start talking about dolls and stuff like that in your, your, your only three days into the shoot and you're going what.
Dean DeBlois 44:40
But I'm equally as inspired by small films with micro budgets that that take a chance and tell a really emotional story and at the end of the day, the films that have changed me personally, are the types of movies I aspire to make, and I'm talking about films like boyhood or, or Dead Poets Society where my outlook was actually changed, where I felt like I didn't want to watch the film again because I didn't want to dissect it, it just had such a palpable visceral impact on me. And I would, I love the challenge of making a film for a big audience and trying to make it successful for the studio. And there's something nice about the, the wide fan base that the films like How to Train Your Dragon have gained. But I do think my spirit is independent. I would like to. I would love to make small films that don't cost very much that take more risk.
James Deakins 45:40
You kind of have to have an independent spirit if you want to create those kind of darker storylines. Because, not really the favorite of big you know budget movies. Yeah, exactly.
Dean DeBlois 45:53
They don't cost much they don't make much, but just in general, but I'm glad they exist.
James Deakins 46:00
Yeah, yeah, who actually found the material of How to Train Your Dragon. There was a
Dean DeBlois 46:06
book fair and Italian Book Fair, and one of our development, people, Chris cruiser. I believe I found the book there, and made the deal for for DreamWorks to acquire the option,
James Deakins 46:18
and it was, was it a series of three books. It is
Dean DeBlois 46:21
a series of 11 books
written by Chris in Macau, is an eccentric wonderful very talented British author, and we were really afraid to meet her because we changed so much about her story on the first film, and we were expecting a very stuffy sort of Angela Lansbury type that was going to toss her tea at us and throw her doilies and in fact she was just this very eccentric illustrator first author second creative spirit and I'm sure it was jarring to see how much had changed but she got behind it right away and realize that there was a great fandom for her books and now there would be a fandom for this, this offspring of her books this. This interpretation, which, you know, that's how she sees it it's just an artistic interpretation of a world she'd created, and she's been a great support all along.
James Deakins 47:15
Was she more involved in part two and three
Dean DeBlois 47:18
involved in the sense that I would send her early screenplays and we'd invite her to see in progress screenings, invite her to be part of the press afterward as well, but she's the type of person who she's quite bold and cheeky. And so I could send her. I could send her an email about a discussion or pressure I was under to change something. And I knew that she always had my back and, and she often would stand up for the bolder idea. So I really appreciate that about her team,
James Deakins 47:50
bringing a life to story that was already something in the form of books. How is that process for you as a writer to bring that to a screenplay, just talk about the challenges or what you do to make that into a movie.
Dean DeBlois 48:03
Well adaptation, I think is probably a very difficult thing to do, we, we were given carte blanche to reinvent. So we kept elements, really broad elements like dragons and Viking world, and a Viking chief who has an inept son who's determined to be like everyone else, a few things like that, but largely the story was reinvented toothless for example in the books is a small talking dragon about the size of a Chihuahua. That's about the adventure of this 10 year old Viking who he selects as part of their right their tradition, young Vikings Go to Select an egg and from that egg they raise a dragon to do tricks and. And they do, they, they train them by yelling at them and braiding them, and hiccup is kind of a sensitive underdog, son of the chief who is a disappointment to everybody but and the egg that he picks yields a very disappointing little dragon, but because he's kind to it it does tricks that far surpass anyone elses. And it's only until the very end, that they're really put to the test when the hostile dragon comes to their shores and it's hiccup and this little dragon toothless that that deal with the threat is very different story. And it's very sweet story and very popular, but they quickly realized that it didn't have the breadth and reach and scope that they needed for, for the investment they were putting into
James Deakins 49:33
it. Was it always conceived as a three parter.
Dean DeBlois 49:36
No, no. In fact, like I said when Chris called me up there were about 15 months left to release. So he just said, Can you help me. Can you help me jump into this, and it's gonna be crazy. But we have to get to the finish line with something that that hopefully works. We weren't thinking about anything beyond that. It wasn't until the film went out there as a success that I was asked to come up with ideas for a sequel. And I, I just have a general allergy to sequels because they feel they just lack purpose in general, I feel like cash grabs and. So I said, well, let's. There are unanswered questions within the story like hiccups some other and and other elements, why don't we craft a trilogy, a true three part story three acts of one coming of age, and take up we'll go from this inept character that no one believes into a Viking Chief, by the end of it, who's who's wise wise enough to cut the ties with the dragon that got him there. So it was, it was designed at that point to be a coming of age and that's, that's really what inspired the idea of of leaping ahead in terms of years within the character's life and meeting him five years later, as a young man on the cusp of adulthood. Taking the story forward.
James Deakins 50:56
They did do a television series right yes how to turn your dragon, they do you involved in Not at all.
Dean DeBlois 51:03
I only I met with the, with the show runners so occasionally we'd have dinner and they tell me what they were working on and I would tell them what I was doing just so that we weren't stepping on one another's toes.
James Deakins 51:13
And because that happened concurrently.
Dean DeBlois 51:16
It was Yeah, and they would fill the years between the movies. Oh, the character years between the movies so the first few seasons of a television show occupied the space between How to Train Your Dragon one and two. And then the last, I think the last couple seasons occupied between two and three, certainly would have hopefully a sense of consistency through. There were characters and villains that were introduced in the series that never that are never mentioned in the films. So it's not entirely consistent in that sense but for the most part we did. We did our best to make sure that it felt like there was a unity, to the whole
James Deakins 51:57
team you obviously have quite an excellent grasp on story and being a director you use it through everything that you do something I think is a theme in Hollywood is looking at classics and like just the fundamentals of story, and you talked about Robert McKee too. Can you just talk about boring story and for directors or people who want to become directors, how do they get that better feel of the fundamentals of story.
Dean DeBlois 52:22
Well, in my personal experience and everybody comes comes to it with a different opinion. I've. I felt that the more macro you can be with your story, the better. I spent a lot of time outlining with just a couple of pages, so that I know that every scene is a fundamental building block and it often looks a little formulaic at that at that stage, but I can use an example from. How to Train Your Dragon as to illustrate my point. We had a board. We put together a board. Very early on that was based on on some of the beats in a book called save the cat by Blake Snyder, is a former screenwriter he passed away. Unfortunately, but he was a friend of mine and yeah he had distilled a lot of a lot of story theory into something that was really practical and easy to use and fun. And a good starting place. And it helped us build a new structure for a father son story and How to Train Your Dragon, one of those beats was hiccup the son begins a devil life by befriending the enemy doing the exact opposite of what his father expects them to do. And there's a communion moment between the boy, and the dragon in private. And we, for the longest time that beat was just pinned up on the board as the Black Stallion moment was that you know Caleb Deschanel beautiful photography of the, of the boy and, and the stallion on the beach after the shipwreck and how they come to trust one another, and eventually ends with the boy riding the horse. That was like I say for the longest time just the Black Stallion moment It sounded like the most generic rip off beat of all, but in execution. You know, we thought through it, we thought how we bring something fresh to this idea this sort of fundamental building block of our story. And it became what is the most iconic moment of the movie and possibly the trilogy. Just that little dance that they do as they're drawing in the sand and finally come face to face and the first moment of contact people cite that as the most poetic moment of certainly the first film and maybe the whole thing. And that came from the most generic place, so I think it's an execution, you know, there, there are a lot of these building blocks that seem a little stale and overused. But they are in many ways essential. So I would say my approach is always, how do I pull back. I learned a lesson from john Lasseter, when he was overseeing Disney in the early days. Shortly after Disney bought Pixar. And he said, Tell me your story. In, in the most generic terms I don't want to know the world, I don't want to know any of the specifics, just tell me your story. And it so that it could be told with robots in space or cavemen, you know, or brokers in Wall Street, it's what is, what is the base story, what's the what's the transformation of your character, you know, where does he or she started Where does he or she and and who are the characters that impact that journey, and at what stage, and and so it's it's the most macro view. And if that's solid, then you can go back in and dress it up with the details of your world, and the specifics of your character and the more specific and original you can get at that stage, the more it will feel unique, if that makes sense. But you know if anyone's curious and I know it's a controversial book because people cite it as being formulaic, I think it's really, I think it's been a great help to me, because it's, it's saved the cat by Blake Snyder. I like it because I read it after years of working in the Disney star department on both Milan and Lilo and Stitch. And coming to find the rhythms and the sort of the structure of the story, very organically through trial and error. By the time it all felt right. And it was ready to, to become the final film. It had fallen into the order that is described in that book, because that book is an observation of hundreds of movies that are that are deemed classics and very successful and they do have common DNA, because there's a certain way that human beings tell stories, and if they're missing some of these elements, it feels a little wrong, it's hard to put your finger on sometimes, but that's one thing the book, helps to outline it gives you questions that really put your idea to the test. And, and helps you discover whether or not it has the material to really stand up.
James Deakins 57:00
Yeah, I've read the book and like you said, I've heard people saying oh it's, it is too formulaic and it's something that you have to watch out for but exactly as you're saying, it gives you an idea of the foundations of it and it helps you understand what's there, and then you can go on and break in and stuff that
Unknown Speaker 57:16
we've talked about with Roger about
James Deakins 57:18
learning composition or waiting and it's
Unknown Speaker 57:20
the 180 degree rule and if you know it,
James Deakins 57:23
then you can go out there and kind of change it and create your own narrative I think it's really important.
Dean DeBlois 57:28
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great starting place, and. And then you end up with examples like No Country for Old Men, where there's a strange feeling this disquieting feeling at the end. You know when the when the villain walks off and you think well that's not the way it's supposed to end becomes the point of the story, you know, it becomes a very a very deliberate decision to veer away from convention, and that's what makes it so strong because it starts at a place of convention. So Dean we've
James Deakins 57:56
over the last couple of episodes on animation we've talked to Roger and his work in it. We've talked to the head of story head of layout, and you being a director, really want to understand how you're wrapping that all together and you have all these different people in similar live action but they're working on different facets. So what kind of what is your job and how do you help wrangle that into one final picture.
Dean DeBlois 58:21
I think if I've learned anything over the, over the last decade and probably add Lilo and Stitch to that as well it's to surround yourself with the people who inspire you, who are the best that you can find and allow them to reign dominion over their aspect of the filmmaking can empower them to be as creative as, as they can be to challenge ideas and to bring better ones into the fray and that way they feel invested and they feel really proud of it. And I feel super supported because I'm not put in a position where I suddenly have to guess or act like I'm an authority in all of these different areas of filmmaking. If there's anything that they entrust me with its story and so I feel great pressure and that's a full time job in itself, to make sure that we're spending our time and resources and talents on moments that will actually make it to the screen. So I tried to be. I tried to go to every meeting, whether it's with animators or modelers or layout people storyboard artists, always trying to come with that knowledge of the story, and a strong point of view about what I would love to get across emotionally and. And then also be opened to ideas that challenge that. But mostly, mostly it's just finding people who are really good at what they do and empowering them to do it.
James Deakins 59:57
And I think people that are very good at what they do and are very invested in what they're doing, want to give you what you want, because that is why we all work we're working to create the director's vision. I mean that is the structure of movies. So, by making people invested gives them more incentive to do what you want.
Dean DeBlois 1:00:22
In my early years in working for Don Bluth in Ireland, I worked on some pretty awful movies toward the end of their run, but the, the talent of the people working on the films was no less than, you know the the folks that I've worked with a Disney or DreamWorks. It's just that the some of the decisions being made from a story perspective, up front, are not we're not all that great. And I just remember putting nights and weekends in. into into what my art you know my contribution to these films and ultimately being embarrassed by the end result when the film came together and I didn't even want to tell people that had worked on them. So I, I made a pact with myself at the time, that if I ever get into a position where I'm calling shots either as a director or department head that I want the crew to be really proud of what we've made together at the end that we could sit in a theater at the wrap party, and with our loved ones and say look, it was worth it you know those those postponed vacations and late nights and weekends were spent on this added up to something that's timeless it's going to affect people and it's resonant and something to be proud of. So it's great if the movie makes a lot of money and it's well received, but most importantly to me is that the crew is really happy that they would want to get together again to make another movie.
James Deakins 1:01:47
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