https://ianimate.net/podcasts/item/interview-with-dreamworks-sr-animator-tal-shwarzman.html?category_id=134
Transcript:
Ric Arroyo 0:04
Hey what's up brother
Larry Vasquez 0:05
Yo, how you doing
your cams way out of whack.
Ric Arroyo 0:09
My kid loves playing on my desk.
Unknown Speaker 0:12
It's terrible. Lovely.
Unknown Speaker 0:19
Yet another podcast from my enemy.
Larry Vasquez 0:22
I'm your host Larry Vasquez and joining me once again is Rick Arroyo.
Unknown Speaker 0:25
How you doing, Rick.
Unknown Speaker 0:26
Doing great. How you guys doing great man, ready to rock it tonight with another
Larry Vasquez 0:30
great guest. Well, Tal Schwartzman today. Joining us talking about rising The Guardian, we're gonna talk about pricing guardians the
Ric Arroyo 0:37
Ross gonna dig deep in and pick through his, his experience and his knowledge so
Larry Vasquez 0:43
absolutely he's actually got quite a few movies underneath his belt from DreamWorks that have that are pretty diverse I think we're gonna get some, some good conversation, kind of about his background in regards to that so definitely looking forward to that. The only event we had here recently.
Ric Arroyo 0:57
Oh yeah, that was that was great that honestly that was fantastic. What a, like say thank you to everyone that came online and in participated. I like to thank the panelists and Dave Jabbar within. Everyone did an amazing job. For those who, who couldn't make it or who missed it, it's online, it's on our Vimeo page and our Facebook page. So you know, check it out. I mean it was a great panel, and like so far been getting a few emails and asking for another one so right on right on yeah
Larry Vasquez 1:27
yeah well I think it's way cool these guys are willing to take some time to do this.
Ric Arroyo 1:30
Yeah, yeah, I mean like, to us, it's really important that you guys, like and share the video it tells us that you guys want us to do more, like you said, everyone. We asked our families, either to step out or go out during the panel so it takes some time to plan and also take some time for our family so we really appreciate when you guys like it and share the videos, it tells us that it's worth us, continuing doing this so you know any comments or compliments are always appreciated.
Larry Vasquez 1:58
That's a good point yeah it's kind of tough to know what people think of it, I'll give feedback right.
Ric Arroyo 2:04
Exactly. And if they have questions to I mean, this because the event is over I mean if you have a question and we see there's some really great questions and we're going to you know we could potentially steer that to the next panel, you know, we can mix it up or talk about something specific so
Larry Vasquez 2:21
we've ended our block here at I animate, we're currently on the break we call it a kind of a grace week, and allows instructors to kind of wrap up any last maybe classes they might have missed during the block, and also for students to catch up on some of the lectures, they want to watch, or maybe get whatever else they want done here, but basically wrapped up another block here and I animate.
Ric Arroyo 2:40
Yeah, let me say, I've been, I've been reviewing some of the students work and I'm, I'm extremely impressed and very proud to say that these guys did an amazing job and let me tip my hat's also to the instructors because, I mean, it takes a lot of, you know, dedication and really expertise to help someone grow as an animator and instructors, I mean, big up to the guys and into the students who that really dedicated and make make our programs, you know so much fun to to do you know so it's really motivating
Larry Vasquez 3:13
and that's a good point though because I know the instructors haven't taken some classes. They aren't just here just to put in some time and leave. They definitely connect with the students and there is a lot more that goes into it than just the time, there's a lot of energy and emotion that goes into it so yeah definitely a big shout out to the instructors as well. We've got a great, great group here,
Ric Arroyo 3:34
and shout out to Jason for, I mean, always he's like on top of everything.
Amazing. I'm like,
Larry Vasquez 3:41
there's clones of him. Basically,
Ric Arroyo 3:43
I'm sure they're
Unknown Speaker 3:46
possible.
Unknown Speaker 3:48
It's so good.
Larry Vasquez 3:50
gets out a ton of shots that were at work and still is able to do all this too, I know. Well, let's pull on our guest here tonight. Let's see if we can get him on here. Towel Are you with us. Yeah. All right, all right, really appreciate you joining us tonight. How you doing, man I'm doing real good Have you had a chance to meet Rick.
Tal Shwarzman 4:12
Yeah, American city and we met the same goes together.
Larry Vasquez 4:15
Right. That's right. You were there, in support and I animate. Absolutely. All right. How's things going.
Tal Shwarzman 4:23
All right, late night at work but back home now, so it's good.
Larry Vasquez 4:27
Yeah, you just started dragons too Right.
Tal Shwarzman 4:29
Yeah, I've been on it for, let's see, as long as I've been back from vacation, which I think is around two months now maybe a little bit more.
Larry Vasquez 4:36
Okay, it's been a little bit in in wild Time flies. Yeah. No, you didn't work on the first one right
Tal Shwarzman 4:41
now. At that time I was on Shrek Forever After.
Larry Vasquez 4:45
Okay, now I was just checking out your bio again before we jumped on here and I noticed that you have a good mix of some movies under your belt that are pretty diverse from Shrek Forever After to monsters vs Aliens Kung Fu Panda, and then now Rise of the Guardians. So yeah, any one of them in particular kind of helped prepare you for dragons to or kind of just your whole career.
Tal Shwarzman 5:10
I mean, not really because most of the stuff I've done has been bipedal even panda which was was anamorphic but it was still mostly bipeds. I did a little bit harder to penetrate for a rafter with donkey but not much. So, This is the first film where there's no wings and not just wings because it's not just a bird it's something that we need to interpret that flies a little bit like a bird a little bit like a bat and mix together and make a dragon, and then add to that the quadropod legs and the tail so not pay things.
Larry Vasquez 5:44
Some special that's cool part of the idea of animation always learning Hmm, yeah,
Tal Shwarzman 5:50
it was funny. It was coming on to the show my first week doing Flight School, which is this kind of time period where the Hulk on the show Simon Otto, he kind of takes you through two weeks of a boot camp of sorts of animation training for flight. And he teaches you how, you know, like flight is supposed to work with birds and then we try to interpret that into three different exercises for the dragon. So it was the first time that was kind of oh crap. Hello I do like the first time where
Unknown Speaker 6:21
it's not you don't
Tal Shwarzman 6:22
know it off the bat, and it's just literally you have to be like damn I gotta learn something. So, if there was like a panic there was one or two days of like what the hell am I doing here What the hell are they doing. And, yeah, it worked itself out after the first week and then became a little bit more confident and kind of comfortable with what you know flight is supposed to be like,
Larry Vasquez 6:43
kind of bring you back to your student days.
Tal Shwarzman 6:46
Yeah, and that's a really crappy feeling Have you
wasted stinky jeeze. Now I know you guys feel like every day you put up my class he was really hate me so it was, it was killing my wife I was like damn. Oh, this might be it be the lesson of the week and that's it to happen.
Larry Vasquez 7:05
Make Yeah, give a little more grace and patience with your students.
Tal Shwarzman 7:09
Yeah, absolutely.
Larry Vasquez 7:12
We'll tell you what let's jump into your, your background a little bit. I noticed that you had studied over at Sheridan in Canada.
Tal Shwarzman 7:19
Yeah, I did the full three years there, graduated in 2000. Unfortunately, that very European much 2d died, like I studied classical animation and that's what I wanted to do. And then that you're, for some reason, all the students kind of shut down Fox Animation was done, like actually call them up that summer and be like, so can I drop off my real cool everybody's gone, like, okay, so when are they coming back like no no no, They're gone. And then you know Disney wasn't hiring. So, yeah, slowly, I did a little bit commercial work a little bit freelance stuff and then found myself doing CG stuff
Larry Vasquez 7:56
slowly were able to make the transition over pretty easy or really hesitant having just been three years now learning 2d.
Tal Shwarzman 8:04
Yeah, I wasn't really into it. I really really wasn't into it I very much love 2d and that's kind of what I wanted to do. And then, the problem is it just there was there was almost no work except for really low commercial stuff and I wasn't really interested in that. And then I had the opportunity to get picked up by a company. Later on called IDT entertainment, which turns into stars and a few other stuff they bought a whole bunch of companies. And I kind of dug with there were kind of selling like the idea and I was kind of like, well, I'll try. I'll teach myself a little bit 3d and see how it goes and once they started teaching myself, kind of what's involved there really kind of kind of got into it and really dug deep, it was like the modeling and all the rigging and stuff and just what can be done. And, you know, I wasn't sure if it was for me but I wanted to try it out.
Larry Vasquez 8:57
Okay. Now, there's two segues here I can kind of take this with someone to try to see if I can get them both in, um, you mentioned you have a little bit you said rigging a little bit you have a little bit of rigging background as well.
Tal Shwarzman 9:07
No, I don't. I mean, I mean I didn't learn any of this stuff it's all self taught, but I think what's really important that a lot of places don't do or students don't understand, today is like what you did today, and you went to school, you learn everything and learn how to character design, which is kind of equivalent to modeling and you know motion I guess there's no real equivalent to articulation which is rigging but you know you did lay out, you did, you know, clean up, you did everything color, and you understand the pipeline. And I think that was very important to know kind of what came before you once after you. And I think in CG it's equally important if not more, simply because if there's a problem with the rig, you need to be able to conveyed in a way that it makes sense to the TDs. And when I started kind of teaching myself modeling and rigging, especially now at work wanting to talk to the riggers, I have a common language. So I can go in and say well I have this equivalent in Microsoft leg, I can do. Can you give me something like that. And most of the time, I can get to a solution pretty quickly, because of that common language.
Larry Vasquez 10:13
That's neat. This okay this kind of segues into my other, I had a recent conversation with Samantha Youssef who had kind of taught some figure drawing classes through I animate and is now doing him as well online and kind of just talking about the 2d background, and how you know you look at movie like tangled, and how it just looks so good. And to me that's one of the 3d films that felt really 2d in a way as well. And I think part of it just having that influence with someone like a Glen Keane who I remember watching some of the outtakes are some of the things the guys were talking about there who would say, they would show in their dailies here and they're taking the shots looking good and Olson limping withdraw over and also they're looking at their shot from a completely new perspective because they didn't have that 2d background. And so just how the influence of 2d can still play, knowing some of that into the 3d, do you feel like that's been the case with you as well. Having had that background in 2d. Um,
Tal Shwarzman 11:13
I think, on certain films. Yes. I found, certain films like in the first panda some shots I we actually animated in the software, we have a drawing software, the controlling part of our center of email, and I would draw, especially if it was really broad I would do the keys and then and then show that to my hoca. And, yeah, I mean, it was efficient would ever say that you can be a good artist like a good draftsman to be a good animator, I mean, you terms but I still think it's good for me.
Larry Vasquez 11:44
Yeah, I guess as far as not even having to do the draw overs but just having that 2d understanding where you're. I'm we're talking with Dave who were at CTN was looking at some of my stuff and he was just mentioning that you know me not having a 2d background. You have to consciously think of things differently because in the 2d, you had a blank slate you had when you drew an eye you had to purposely draw it in a certain way, when you're in the 3d realm, the eyes there and so sometimes you don't necessarily think to shape it maybe differently. And so I'm thinking where you're coming back from a 2d background. Having that appeal knowing some of those principles that are taught still in CG today, but maybe not necessarily as thought upon when you're working because, you know, some of us don't have that 2d background like someone like you.
Unknown Speaker 12:31
Does it makes sense?
Tal Shwarzman 12:31
And it makes a lot of sense actually because it's funny. I mean, you brought up guardians guardians tended to be very realistic but now on dragons, Simon said he kind of wants to take it a little bit more broad. So even when the characters to kind of the characters he, like looked down or left to right. He wants us to kind of shape the eyes like we would in 2d, we scale it and make it a little bit more, maybe it's a circular oval. So, to maybe make a little bit more graphic. So, I mean, yeah, I think it helps and I think it kind of adds a graphic sensibility to the stuff that you do. And I think it's important to remember, keep in mind that. Yeah, we work in 3d, and it's a 3d object in the software but in the end it's all flat. The flat even when you do on 3d, like in stereo stereo, it's still flat even though the depth to it, it still remains a flat element, then it goes to the DVD. So keeping that kind of graphic in mind. I think it's a benefit Yeah, yeah,
Larry Vasquez 13:29
yeah, just kind of a neat subject as I was kind of thinking about it and just the benefit that the two can have kind of bridging that you know having that background and I was looking at your, your bio. Notice in that you had that there was the guardians, we had a recent interview with Alexis, Roy, and he mentioned that he worked solely on tooth fairy. Was there anybody that you worked on, primarily or you work on a couple different characters.
Tal Shwarzman 13:54
It's funny, I actually worked on, primarily one character which was Sophie, remember her little girl vlog Harris, James little
Larry Vasquez 14:02
sister Yes, yes.
Tal Shwarzman 14:04
So what happened was is when the movie was on it pretty early. Right after panda two and I was supposed to be in a jack team, and then there was just something about the guardians that I couldn't click with like I didn't grow up with those characters. I didn't grow up with Santa Claus or jack frost or Tooth Fairy really, so I didn't have that connection to them and they couldn't relate. And I just had my daughter was born like a year earlier so she was around age, and I saw her and I'm like, Oh, I can relate to that. And it's a good reference and I kind of find that interesting. So it kind of levitated toward the character and then gave the hook of the show was really cool and he kind of gave me ownership of the character so I ended up doing I want to say 70% of the character. So I got to do a good chunk of it on on screen.
Larry Vasquez 14:51
That's a good point there because you mentioned it here, you know, not having much of a connection, until there was a character that kind of jumped out of you, or jumped out at you do to your situation in life you know being a dad there. How did some of that stuff play effect in your animation with the character. Were you able to things that you can go oh I knew I animated this shot because I was gleaning that from interacting with my daughter.
Tal Shwarzman 15:15
It's funny because I think a lot of a lot of the animation show we're talking about difficult was to animate on that show but I found the guardians of the grownups, not more difficult than we usually did. I would have discovered on shows, actually enemy the children was the biggest challenge for me because we as adults, I mean you, I mean I know you're dead Larry and it's like people that don't have kids don't understand sometimes that the way kids think is so different. They don't have the filters that we have, so it hasn't kind of infected them with that stuff yet and just the energy they have when they move is so different, so you can't really get into a recording room. Record reference of yourself, pretending to be a four year old energy isn't there like even your center of gravity is different, even the way you perceive stuff is very different. Even the way you sit and pose yourself. You'll have the same flexibility they do. You might have an idea with a cute kid might look like. But it's never exactly what it was for me. It was a shot with Sophie and then I would go home she references my daughter in my life and when I would see a post my daughter and like I never would have thought of doing it like that. And it's just the energy and the speed or the things that would, would stop one stop doing something right. So I kind of found that I would try to see what she would do find a way to incorporate that because you know you can ask her to act it out.
It was interesting to put her in scenarios that were edible
for the film like there was a shot where I remember,
we're kind of looking at this flower opening in in eastern land, and she kind of looking at he's looking at Yes. So I've got this toy flower that we had and I was holding him while he was shooting us and getting my daughter to be interested in it, and it's just taking putting her in scenario that's relatable and then taking that reference and then trying to interpret that into animation was was fun, and I think you brought something genuine to the performance. Instead of, you know, a 3034 30 year old animator locked in a room trying to be
So I was happy with the code to that territory.
Larry Vasquez 17:30
You know, one of the things we talked a lot about with Alexis, and I want to get your take on that is using reference you know here, we're kind of talking about it with Rise Of The Guardian zip is definitely more on the naturalistic side and, obviously, reference was heavily used, but here you're saying that you know you're taking a shot with your, your daughter of reference that you're now going to use and interpolate from that. So it's not a one to one that you're doing. So how, you know, as you're looking at that in animating. What's your philosophy and thoughts on reference in doing exactly you just mentioned there interpolating it to be able to adapt that to your shot.
Tal Shwarzman 18:11
That's a really good question has probably the, usually with my students the most. I think for me reference isn't.
Yeah, you want to try and set up a camera that's close to what your shot is and get something in there. The idea is though your character's proportions are always going to be more or less different than yours. Especially if you know depending on the age also. So, I'm not always gonna be able to hit the exact pose, or the exact posture that my character needs to. So, I try to get a reference is the mechanics of it, meaning how things move and the timing, kind of how things affect like how well you know, a footstep down the hips kind of shaped this way or that way. What happens with the overlap of the chest, and. And then I try and take that information basically that ocean interpret back into the actual characters rig and make it applicable to them because the worst thing that can happen if you take it one for one pattern for instance if you took one for one, it would look like a person in a huge panda suit. Okay, the person's motion in a time, you know, and so I think the important thing is not to try scope it as much as it is to interpret the actual motion and your timing and your spacing, and then try to add on to your CG character.
Larry Vasquez 19:34
Okay, I'm going to plug your, your blog here. Can you give us the web address. So it's
Tal Shwarzman 19:43
http://www.animation-addicts.com/
Larry Vasquez 19:44
We're not yeah I noticed that you've been posting quite a bit of stuff in regards to even that I know there was a post in regards to using your reference so I definitely want to plug that so we can get that out there and then information. Maybe we'll come back around to rise the guardians but since we're talking about your blog What made you want to start doing that.
Tal Shwarzman 20:03
I'll be teaching with me for about two years now, and it's funny, a lot of his students kind of always ask me where do you get information from and, you know, what's out there origin we look stuff up. And I found that I really didn't have any sites that I went to a lot of times, there was a lot of stuff that built in kind of the rumors and critiques of the industry of filming, you know, think that you are named, but there wasn't something that dealt in actual information, and all this stuff that I found interesting, and I felt that I wanted to share that with people. Just because I didn't, I didn't see what's out there and a lot of times it was for profit and I kind of just wanted to give it out there and try to share as much as I can with people because everyone when I was young, very young long time ago, there was nothing. There's no information out there, there were no books that were accessible there was nothing there was no internet so I think we take a lot of stuff for granted now, and make sure that you know you kind of give back.
Larry Vasquez 21:03
Yeah, it's definitely been a neat resource I've already been able to tell. And then that kind of goes into one of the things that you've been doing here which is that it for you just recently started that will tell you what, why don't you tell us about that a little bit.
Tal Shwarzman 21:16
I think it was just on credit you know you've ever
made a comment about cyber who was some of the charging for it or something. And it reminded me when I just got into history and I would send him a reel to animate a few trainers at DreamWorks and Disney in time to look at your reel and give you feedback. they're really cool about that I mean that was nobody else some kid out of school. And they took their time to really look it over and give constructive feedback and they didn't charge me for it, they weren't looking to make a quick buck off it. And I kind of found that, you know, it was one of those things where, again you paid for those things where someone did it for you. And it's just what you do for someone else I mean you can't. I mean, to a certain extent yeah we teach and there's a structure to that, but to try it and I think
really
squeeze every last dime out of people I think is a little bit extreme, and you want to be fair, you want to be, you know, doing a good thing and remember that we're all trying to move together ahead to better at what we do. And remember that someone wants to time from their very busy schedule and their family to do the same for you. It just seems, you know, fair to do it.
Larry Vasquez 22:28
No, it's been very cool and then so you just recently, recorded them and got them out to some of the people is that how it worked or what. I didn't think it was again I think a response if there's time,
Tal Shwarzman 22:37
and then I made the mistake of whoever submitted gather review.
People submitted all like one person but it was just like so many people that I was just like, I almost needed to bring someone else to help me out. And I was like, No, I'll do it all and it just took forever recorded and edited send it out to people. Okay.
Ric Arroyo 23:00
How many people did you get.
Tal Shwarzman 23:02
It's gonna go a name, had to actually enter again, there were some people that I knew, And I was like, Listen, I know you're stuck you're good. I gotta have to put you on and off for another month because there's just too many people like teach to the website and actually work with you that pays my bills, and then do this and I was like, I had to do it during the holiday I think I did most
Larry Vasquez 23:22
of it during the Thanksgiving holiday. So definitely paying it forward then.
Unknown Speaker 23:26
Absolutely.
Larry Vasquez 23:28
That's very cool. Are you gonna be are you gonna post them on your site as well.
Tal Shwarzman 23:32
I don't know if everyone wants to watch someone's review. So I'm just gonna do like a small trailer for the next month so people can check it out and see what it's about. And then, when people can submit it
Larry Vasquez 23:42
for the following time. Okay, so, animation, dash attics comm check that out good resource. Okay, back to some of your other movies, I got a question here. What has been one of the favorite characters you've worked on
Tal Shwarzman 23:57
chat, taking them back.
I would say I would say Sophie. Okay, because that was personally, I, you know what we do takes a lot of time, I you know you can be at work from 10 to 1213 hours a day. And then it's, I get to watch my daughter, basically, I see her on screen. I get the reference of gets here and my wife, and, you know, I kind of model like shaped her based on my daughter's teachers so for me it was something very very personal. I cared a lot about the character and I tried to infuse much of her into it and just try to, you know, chew with as much love and care as they could. So for me I guess that's probably the one I care about the most.
Ric Arroyo 24:41
So since this character was so personal but how do you how do you like tap or unlock like different characters personality or a different character like how do you make that character. Interesting.
Tal Shwarzman 24:55
It's funny and I do, I do best usually when I can find something unique to focus on on the character like Kung Fu Panda two or a little bit with the wolf boss. And when I was working in that the supervisor was, that was really cool as Rudolph Gannett then he really had this idea of putting into it what was in the way on the first Panda, like that. The turtle of Parkinson's, you know, and the licking of the lips stuff. He wants something very. And so he kind of suggested I do a little bit more canine. And I found that when I try to infuse that with human and really bring something a little bit more feral to it. It is a my interest in the character more because it made it something a little bit more unique than kind of generic nine when we're talking about a diamond suit. And usually with that kind of stuff that's kind of sparks my interest age they've just kind of dived into that try to make it can. It's like, I think in live action to a certain extent, you want to find out something unique about their character something that really defines who they are, so you can connect to them, and then that way you can figure out who they are and kind of where they come from or where they're going and kind of slowly unravels and builds up, how they would do stuff, and you get a better sense of who they are, you can connect with them on the form.
Larry Vasquez 26:10
Working on Rise of the Guardians different from maybe some of your past projects.
Tal Shwarzman 26:17
It was a challenge. It was a challenge because it was a character count was like I said we're dealing mostly with the kids so I had a bar shot where there was, you know, five six kids. And the schedule is really tight so that stuff had to be executed, very very well, a very high standard we had some of the best enemies on the phone. So they were. I don't use profanity on on on the cast, but they had an St. They called spline effing, to the point where every little thing was, you know, my new shirt today, and
Larry Vasquez 26:57
doing back then,
Tal Shwarzman 26:58
quality on a timely basis was not the most productive software was very very taxing
Larry Vasquez 27:05
right because I know, Alexis mentioned that you guys are with our junior dragon today you've got just now jumped to the new software right.
Tal Shwarzman 27:12
The Last Supper was fine it's just it was, it was a little bit slow and I worked in it, you know as been, as long as I've been at the company happens all day it was just that. This show was so massive and in its demand in, and executed, that they wanted, I think if you really look film. They're completely washed in background characters certain films and the characters are just literally looking screen left screen right. Sometimes, which is fine because it's good, it doesn't distract, but this movie they really wanted to have almost like a visual effects live action feel to it. And if you look, I swear, every character is doing some animation everything was unique per shot. It was crafted for that shot. So, it was just every shot was from scratch. You couldn't use anything so it was just very very demanding on, I think the animation team has a hold
Larry Vasquez 28:05
of Well, I know I mentioned this on the podcast with Alexis but I'll mention it to you as well because he worked on it I really really liked the film, I talked with Rick he really enjoyed it too. And so far, everybody I've talked to that seen it has really enjoyed it. And I even mentioned it, that the theater that we were at afterwards people were standing up and applauding. So I think it really shows you know I know there was obviously, probably times you felt like pulling out your hair during protection. But the payoff I think as far as how well the movie turned out has been really I think worthwhile and
Tal Shwarzman 28:37
I'm really, really proud of the work that I did on it I think a lot of people are proud of the working I think the accomplishment on a technical level is actually quite impressive.
Ric Arroyo 28:47
I was, I would say probably that, if you don't mind me cutting. I was gonna say felt a little bit more mature in a way of portraying the characters you know the characters felt there wasn't like that typical gag. In the movie The characters, felt a little bit more mature but I mean still for a young audience but but the way they portray themselves on screen. I thought was done really well I mean, personally I didn't really know about jack frost, but I didn't, I didn't think of about him like as this film I just thought about this new character and the way they portrayed him was very I felt very original I didn't pick that up that quickly and in I thought it was really well done, especially being a holiday movie. It's a challenging thing and I thought everyone did a great job and the characters,
Tal Shwarzman 29:33
really really really strong, and dedicated team on that show I have been, it took its toll on me good show I think usually you find like scenes. Any student any film that is the movies that kind of stand out as
Larry Vasquez 29:47
quality
Tal Shwarzman 29:48
or something that really impresses people usually the films that are usually the hardest to work on because the you the art, push the extreme to get it done. And because they want to sometimes they're inspired. And it is a you know it's the positive visit you're part of the end but we'll get there is a little tough.
Larry Vasquez 30:06
I know one of the things that Alex has mentioned was the team on the panel was a blast. You felt, would you say something similar to the team that you're able to work on, not just talent wise but just the atmosphere of this one here as well.
Tal Shwarzman 30:19
Yeah, I mean, I, again, I was pretty, I worked alone a lot. Unlike. She had worked on Tooth Fairy yet a team. Because Sophie's role in the film was so minimal. I was lucky enough to be kind of left alone just work on her for pretty much the film, and ended up doing yeah like I said things like 70% so I ended up. I wasn't an outcast but I ended up kind of being a situation where I would hear stuff. A month later, like notes and stuff and that was happening show and all this stuff. I was basically just keeping my head down and working on it I was having a lot of fun working with her. I don't know, I mean, I think there was a good team and I had fun working on the back character with the people I was with, especially the kids team, we we had a great soup Anthony. And I was pretty fun team. Yeah, I mean,
Larry Vasquez 31:11
I enjoyed myself. Very cool. What other characters have you enjoyed working on. Besides, Sophie.
Tal Shwarzman 31:18
Oh, I really enjoyed a panda and then wolf boss was a lot of fun. A lot of fun actually. Yeah, on Shrek I had tried he was an interesting character. He's a little different because there's like this iconic character and then we're gonna head up to all these years, but there's all these rules about what trick does and doesn't do, which is something new for I think a lot of people to studio because he's a legacy character. All these soldiers, and people know I'm still suddenly like you're limited by what you can do. you can't just make stuff up on the fly. But there's a lot of fun.
Larry Vasquez 31:51
I think the neat thing about that though, is that it kind of establishes them as a person to a degree not you know obviously human but as a personality I guess I would say, and I think that's part of what we try to do in animation is that mimicking life.
Unknown Speaker 32:08
Funny enough, though.
Larry Vasquez 32:09
They have myself here on the podcast
Tal Shwarzman 32:11
we cheated a little bit of trade for I was in a team with
a few of the animators and in
Unknown Speaker 32:19
one of them, reshaped Shrek and a few
Tal Shwarzman 32:21
of the shots that he was working on so Shrek is all because we made them a little healing. And if they hope to get a hold of you, Jason rising because we are, if you get a hold of you doing that. We just had able to tweak it past them so we got through like
you know you can shrink her nose. I think shrink was it No we made the nose a little bit bigger pocket bag shape the shape of the mouth a little bit. So, if you watch it you compare with like shirt three he just seems a little bit more appealing a little bit more rounded and a little bit more proportionate especially
Larry Vasquez 32:54
nice. Okay. Is that on DVD there's nothing they can do about it now. Walkman was so appealing about him with joy about him so much.
Tal Shwarzman 33:07
It was just a nervous energy, and once I got to play with him a little bit and really get that nervous energy into him but like the canine stuff. It became a little fun, like I was able to start doing this stuff when he kind of licks his lips and becomes a little bit more submissive, and suddenly it went from me kind of just acting it out to being something very unique because again it was that point where you kind of, you know, close the door you record yourself or you get someone record in the bank. You're choking that into your character but then it's always. There's nothing unique about it. And once I infused actually to some reference from YouTube of a dog line with a brown kind of breathing panting, and then a super like just took that together with the reference shot of myself and put it together and it became something that was very for that, and very different and suddenly I don't know it stopped being just you know CG puppet. Can I keep my for me and I found that to be a lot of fun.
Larry Vasquez 34:04
What kind of shots you prefer working on nerves, it doesn't matter i mean do you prefer more comedy more sincere more sinister.
Tal Shwarzman 34:11
So the thing I get a lot of comedy shows and they're really funny guy.
Like, like us people work I'm like the least comical least happy guy and it's like I get these shots that I'm like, why do I get these shots. I like, I like them all. I mean to me. When I think of animation and think of it in a mechanic's sense so either way, it all kind of comes down to the same thing, it's, you know, bouncing ball and say, you know, things with overlap and follow through. Once you get your reference working once you get your idea and your plan working, it just becomes a matter of executing the sharp end of me It all becomes the same kind of thing really quickly about your reference. Do you,
Ric Arroyo 34:54
do you like acting out a shot or do you prefer like digging, you know like through YouTube and finding reference that would work. You know, that would work with your shot,
Tal Shwarzman 35:04
depending on what the shot is, if it's a shot that I'm doing. I have an idea for it. I'll act it out. Most of the time, I'll go in with another animator, that I really trust in the recording room, and then have them to pass, and then I'll have myself do a path and see which one I prefer unless you know it's a supervisor sometimes there's certain characters that the supervisors one should reference, themselves, and they want you to use that, so that they might you give kind of more ideas of what could happen. They want to be the person recording it so that it's consistent throughout the whole film the motion of it.
Larry Vasquez 35:41
Okay, goes back to you know you're seeing kind of least funniest guy there. How do you then adapt to a shot that is supposed to be comedic, how do you pull that out then something that you maybe you're uncomfortable with or not
Tal Shwarzman 35:54
normally tall. I lie on the wards, a lot, I think storyboard artists are exceptionally talented, they are capable of incorporating and containing one like a whole bunch of ideas into one pose a lot of the time. If it's a really great board artist, and he watched film and boards and you laugh or you feel something for you get emotional. The board has done something really phenomenal and that one drawing, and in the timing, maybe perhaps one switch to another. And I think looking back at those is always a good base to see what's working, what's not. A good example is on panda I had a second one, where Matt, talked about his dad. And like he never knew his dad because mommy had it and I did the shot. And in the boards he was funny as hell. It was funny. And then I did my friends and they showed you my supervisor role. And I'll never live this down, he looks at me He's like, God, you killed the funny. Like, I knew it wasn't funny. I knew it wasn't funny and I looked at him like he's like you just freaking killed the funny. So I went back to the board, they're like, look what made funny, just the timing and really simplifying some of the work. So, just, you know, clean out a lot of animation took up the you know the animation aspect of it and kind of relied on the sharpness of the timing and the switch of the poses to bring the economy back into it and it did so well he got a lap so I'll say that much
Larry Vasquez 37:19
so good at observing you know maybe what was funny then,
Tal Shwarzman 37:23
our job is not always to reinvent the wheel every time. It's to understand. I think the two shots will work. And I think it's really important to remember that not every shot needs to be a 10. And what I mean by that is not shot needs to be at the volume of attempt does have to be vibrating always busy. Always, something happened. Sometimes the right shots, great shots. No some of my favorite shots and thumbs are in shots that you want considered shots. But the way they're cut into the film with the music and the render and all the effects. To me the iconic shots of the film so understanding the role of your shot. Going to sequence, and knowing what you need to do is really important and usually you kind of everything needs to be done and do the best job on it. Okay.
Larry Vasquez 38:05
You want to describe it a little bit your workflow,
Tal Shwarzman 38:07
my workflow. So, it changes on the shots, a lot of the time on complex physic shots we have a lot of characters that might do everything in layered method, we'll take the routes and just kind of move them just to get a sense of the timing. The choreography of the shot. But for most shots, I'll shoot reference. Well, let me say that I'm back. I'll get the launch from the director, and then I'll kind of get all the input, and then I'll start drawing some thumbnails. And like I mentioned on the post on the site. It's not thumbnails for keys, it's just looking for idea, almost to a certain extent like a storyboard idea that one idea that might be entertaining. That might sell the shot. And then after that, I'll go to a reference room with someone, or myself. Record the reference and take the best take, and then just sit, an animated thing and what I usually do is up, depending on how much time I have, if it's really crunch I'll do it on fours, or on eights. If at a time we'll probably learn on twos straight ahead. I'll just work on the body and the face. If you can sell the performance, I think, in the body and the mannerisms, the faces kind of just kept the icing on the cake.
Larry Vasquez 39:21
Okay, now how do you feel straight heading on tues, how does that help you then, or why do you prefer that method I guess
Tal Shwarzman 39:27
why because I used to, I love animating, as you can tell animatronics I love animating, to the point where I tend to over enemy, the hell out of everything. I love overlap I love fall through love showing that I can do it, and totally get caught up in the spline forever and ever. The problem with that is it's not always benefiting the shot like I said so. I think what difference gives me straight ahead. it limits me not locks me into doing what the shop needs versus what I want to do. And that makes sure that the shop benefits, 100%, from my from my talent and not my ego, I would say. So, I get across what needs to be there without all the embellishments and all the flutter and once the block is correct, and locked. Okay, I can go in there finesse it, but I won't be adding a crapload of overlapping arms and swooning left and right and dragged on the head and all that stuff. So for me it's more like a checks
Larry Vasquez 40:29
gonna keep you contained.
Tal Shwarzman 40:30
Yeah, absolutely, you know, making sure I don't go crazy.
Larry Vasquez 40:35
One of the things I wanted to talk with you about here. And I thought it was a fantastic post, I think was on your site. So what if we can find that, but just an article that you'd posted about animation being difficult and back when you were going to school, the thought of going to school for a year or two and being done and thinking that hey I'm gonna arrive now was was not even on the table. Yeah.
Tal Shwarzman 40:58
Anyway, talking about making it that was a post that post came up in one of the classes and one of my students. I'm not going to mention a comment of, you know, they'd gone to school and then when they didn't hit a big, there's a little bit of disappointment in the family. I'm like, I thought that was completely unfair. When I went to school, you know in 2d was just like you were going to school just to prepare you for the industry. Start doing cleanup, or in between, and then you were planning to spend, you know, four to five years doing that stuff a lot of the time, before you even became an animator, and then you know just an animator. So, there was this thing where there was a almost like an apprenticeship kind of development stage to it where you, you competence skill builds up equally, and you're not kind of just thrown into it and done it, and you know some studios do it some of us don't I think Disney has an interesting thing where they do their apprenticeship program. You know probably gives people confidence and slowly prepares them for what needs to happen as compared to just throw them in the deep end because the stress is no people start staying insane hours that they don't register. And that doesn't benefit them, because a excuse they're like their footage, makes it look like they're doing much more than they are. And then also, they're not getting faster they're just putting more hours, and it's a situation where you need to learn to become efficient in the workflow. Without the stress of feeling that if I don't do this right off the bat didn't fire me. And I just seen the stress, a lot of people that are under these days haven't hit it right out of school is quite ridiculous to me like I graduated as shown in 2009 even hidden features until like. No. Was it like four years later, I was abundant Upon doing you know, God knows what till I was even crack into feature so
Larry Vasquez 42:48
I think the reason why I liked that post so much is just that. I don't know maybe just our society or what we try to push is, it's almost this idea that instant on instant off, we want things here and now without. And I'm not saying people don't pay their dues because I mean something like einem it's very very difficult, but just the idea that you're saying that to think that okay once we're done with wherever you go to school that I've arrived, without going, there's still a lot of training involved, and I think a lot of times, particularly, you know just animation in general just learning it, it's, it's a tough discipline to learn as my point.
Tal Shwarzman 43:24
For me it's funny because I mean when I got, I never thought, oh this is I made it like I was like, I'll be lucky to last six months, I would first thought and, and I had already done two features and it was like my learning only really begun. When I got to DreamWorks. And it's funny I think what you mentioned about going to school, maybe you make it to the studio, but the funny thing was I think a lot of the schools, a be online or brick and mortar, there's a danger that's kind of starting to come that I saw while I was at CTN on people's reels like people are getting really good at stuff around, but it's just moving around. Like, really giving it personality and something unique. I'm not seeing that in almost any reels. So you just see people that are, you know everything kind of looks the same. I saw maybe 15 or 20 reels AT CTN and I swear, I can't remember for them because they're almost all identical. Because the rules were identical. It was because the movements were identical is like a template. And it was nobody takes into consideration that if you have a two character shot, and each character should be moving differently. There's something unique about each one, their personalities, really reflect, having the why they. And it's kind of being lost and it's funny, I kind of got that stuff back to me by the 2d guys know Rudolph and all those guys that are just like nah man stop just moving around for no reason. Put something unique give a purpose, give it personality give it life. And I think it's a dangerous kind of slippery slope we're getting our people just becoming. Think of the TV moving stuff. And now, making a move, you know, reason. Yeah, I think, again, so good. So yeah, stick around with to really. I guess the question is What's your goal is your goal just to be a DreamWorks or Pixar or Disney, or blue sky, or is it to be a really good animator For me it was, yeah I wanted to get to DreamWorks, and I wanted to work for me was always, I wanted to get, I want to continue to learn, and there was never that never arrived it's that I need to keep learning, I need to keep getting better I got to figure out why my stuff doesn't look like stuff what is the missing fat. So for me it's always going to be a thing where it's like, gotta keep getting better than keep studying and finding what's missing from the work.
Larry Vasquez 45:39
Yeah. Now I really I like I said I really liked the article. That was really good wolf 2.2 there as well. It just really put a kind of a reality check on kind of which is, you know, like you said what seems to be kind of happening in the education industry as far as at least maybe with an animation is concerned that there isn't a matter of still progressing and learning in that drive you know,
Tal Shwarzman 46:04
I think, I think it's really. Maybe I mean, I hope it's because it's CG or 2d, maybe a little bit of the craftsmanship, the artists and all became a little bit less you know what I mean it's become more of an execution industry now where you need to go to executing which is really important and I wanted to kind of infuse it since I mechanics, you know, basic needs to be right there needs to be purpose to it. And I think
what we do, maybe just getting a little lost and comes back a little bit more.
Larry Vasquez 46:37
Well that's kind of what I was even hitting upon when I was talking, when I mentioned, Samantha elusive that kind of bridging that gap in dirt, maybe, maybe a better term would be infusing what was in 2d and what made it so good into CG, you know, we've got, I mean obviously you know look at Rise of the Guardians that craftsmanship is there, but across the board on you know maybe some other movies where the craftsmanship is there as well but like you're saying just not that what makes that character believable or or believable but you take away with it.
Tal Shwarzman 47:12
Samantha she's she's extremely talented when actually school together, she was I think she was two years after age extremely I mean even in school she was phenomenal. But yeah, I think it's funny it's it's a lot of, if you look at a lot of stuff out there. It's a little bit homogenized, I mean, I'm not gonna call things out but it's just, I don't think it's the artists fault I don't think they will want to do better or do greater make it unique it's just what is expected from the studios, kind of what directors want they want it to look like this thing where it looks like this thing, or just, I want to imitate the last big thing so my thing will be as explained everything starts to look very very similar to words, you can't even tell a little part anymore.
Larry Vasquez 47:53
I visited Jamal Bradley when he was still a Brit Disney and he had a picture from something that I guess glim Keane had mentioned, I forget that what was only Johnson who said tickling keen. But basically, the idea was like he had shown, Olli Johnson something he's like yeah you know that's that's good animation, he's old, but it doesn't really entertain me. Yeah, you know, and the idea was that, yeah you're executing it right but. Okay, so what after that, I mean
Tal Shwarzman 48:21
don't get me wrong I'm not saying everything like that. I mean there's been some phenomenal ease this year and like tonight. It's definitely paranoia. I talk forever this year I thought it was, it was something so unique and everything in that film. And I think, you know, things move for a reason that film, as well as a great story and I kind of like to see that in a lot of the CG films as well.
Larry Vasquez 48:41
Right, right. Ricky anything. Sir, I've been talking a lot here.
Ric Arroyo 48:45
No, no, this has been a great podcast, but my head wouldn't have animators asking, What can I animator do to become better in something I like to ask a little light to all the instructors or 20 animators out there. Paul, what do you think in Amharic do to become better like is there something that he can do often or
need a bond or a draw or something. What would you suggest
Tal Shwarzman 49:10
I would just practice, and unfortunately what we do. I think there's this great quote by Bill title, he says, There's no particular student animation. It's actually quite unlike anything simple it's probably the hardest thing to do. Like any article. It just requires a lot of practice, and just challenge yourself to do stuff that you would never do chance have to do something that's different, and maybe do a, like a mechanic shop. Never do do a simple shutdown, never do. There's something kind of flexes your muscles and every time you try and learn something new from it. just, I would say, study, film, I mean there's these great snippets that were done was in New York Time Magazine. A few years back, your brothers Larry I mean,
Larry Vasquez 49:56
yeah, I think I post them on the site somewhere.
Tal Shwarzman 50:00
And those was heavier brother and a few others, it was just phenomenal performances, there was all sudden it was these actors who are portraying these small moments and watching those scenes and trying to analyze what made them unique what those actors performance, those characters life and those few seconds, and try to interpret that into animation and think is something that would, you know benefit any animator. Hope you push yourself and learn what makes characters life.
Larry Vasquez 50:30
You've been with me since day one. We'll be back in 2010. Is there anything that you've kind of felt like you've shared pretty consistently across the board. And is there anything that you felt like now you know having taught, two years under your belt that you've kind of felt like this is something new I want to share.
Tal Shwarzman 50:56
I mean I think I've probably talked about mechanics just timing t why transition wise probably the thing that I keep reading about is like the bouncing ball theory. You know giving characters genuine uniqueness. A lot of times comes down to a simple thing of weight. And it's something that I keep hammering to my students. And coming up in the next couple bucks I'll probably focus a little bit more, just on theory of acting, I want to bring something that's really start to challenge the students to try to make something kind of different and not be produced what they've seen in other stuff. And I have a few things planned that want to surprise him with on day one, so it should be fun.
Unknown Speaker 51:38
Okay, so we can't talk about it right now
Tal Shwarzman 51:43
get scared yet
Larry Vasquez 51:45
know what works upset you taught so far, facial acting
Tal Shwarzman 51:49
advanced body mechanics, full body, acting and I'm going to do now both full body acting and I think efficient mechanic facials and facial again.
Larry Vasquez 51:58
Okay. Is there a new one that you've preferred better or I'm gonna say better but you've maybe just enjoyed more.
Tal Shwarzman 52:05
No, for me, they're all interesting.
It just depends. again I think in mechanics is so important. Because when you go to any company, a lot of the time, you'll be told what to do. You can try and put a little bit of what you want in there, but some is a very, you know, if you have a very controlling supervisor very.
Larry Vasquez 53:11
DreamWorks hired a massive amount of people Disney was there was a big competition. So there was the teachers weren't exactly on top of it. Nice. So, I was kind of bummed that I didn't really have people that had animated teaching the animation was ridiculous they saw
Tal Shwarzman 53:30
your initiative, professionals,
like myself, they can bring
Larry Vasquez 53:33
proper information to the students. And when, hopefully, they're benefiting from it, and it's not that they'll do, or animate and have to go
Tal Shwarzman 53:41
somewhere else to learn again hopefully when they come, they get they need to get, and that it serves have been really moving forward. For me, very cool. That's actually why one of the reasons we did a podcast, my brother and Jeff in wanting to take it from kind of some students vantage point and Darrell obviously be one of our first class graduates and not having a background in animation he hadn't worked in animation before that, and how I animate was able to help prepare him for the jobs that he's had since then.
Any closing thoughts, any closing thoughts yep and let's, we're gonna go deep notice
we sort of wrap it up but i thought you know, give you an opportunity here if there's anything that else on your mind that you'd like to share with us.
And oh man.
I wanted, I guess I wanted to touch back and get what you said. The the post I said about making it, I think the most important thing I think a lot of people want to do what we do. They do it now because they want to be, you know,
no one for the world not that they want to make a lot of money, they want to do. Love, animation, I love doing this,
Larry Vasquez 54:50
I love arch animation I think it sickens my wife a little bit how much. I think it's just people that can't find their break to get it, just to keep at it. And remember that you're doing this because you want to land a big job always but because you love doing this and it's about you becoming better at it,
Unknown Speaker 55:09
and sometimes just becoming better at it sometimes is going to help you get there and just focus on the small thing which is your, your ability to grow as an artist is something you could actually control, and then hopefully it will lead you to where you want to go, and a little bit more fulfilled as an artist that you were able to improve become good, and then hopefully we should go
Unknown Speaker 55:31
that circle right on. Awesome. Well, very much appreciate your time I know with the wife and little ones and teaching and working. It's very limited so we do really appreciate you joining us tonight. All right with that we are out guys thank you very much again.
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